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BizKiTRoAcH · 39765

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Offline Matthias

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Reply #240 on: August 05, 2008, 07:51:36 AM
It seems I lost the point of this 'discussion' or at least I don't get it why it's going on and on and on, with the same users and the same posts *g*



Offline Sander

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Reply #241 on: August 05, 2008, 10:37:26 AM
I know there was nothing there about Yoshiki Mobile.  Otherwise people would not have immediately begun mocking that rule when the new rules were announced.
Hmm I'm almost sure there was one. Not going to argue though, just in case.

And if there WAS something about translations and something about PMs, then how were my suggestions so radically different from that?  Didn't I include something about translations and PMs there?  You're arguing in circles now.  Could you remind me again of how any of this supposedly invalidates my suggestions and what exactly your point is?
Now where did I say something invalidates your suggestions? Stop making shit up!

Oh.  I thought you said "there could be a million reasons"?  And now you know the reasons specifically?  That's fascinating.
For hide's sake! I only brought one example why they might be leaving! There might be millions of reasons, and this might be one of them.

As I've said: if you are truly interested in why people are leaving, stop blowing smoke and start fact-finding.  Make a poll.  See how it turns out.  Or are you concerned that, like the rules poll, it won't end up in your favor?
Ummm... If a person leaves, how is he supposed to answer my poll? I'll e-mail them? How do I know they aren't just on vacation for a week? Or should I make a poll 'If you'd leave tomorrow, then why?' or 'Are you going to leave? If yes, why?'. Sounds stupid imo...

Really?  I thought you just claimed that "what I do here" (state my opinions, presumably) is part of the reason your forum is losing users.  Contradicting yourself again, huh?  Oops.
Stating your opinions is ok, but for 8 pages? Arguing with absolutely everything? As Matthias said, this discussion has lost it's point. So I think I'm going back to the 'not answering ie. hitting my head against the wall' mode.

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #242 on: August 06, 2008, 09:28:19 PM
Quote from: Hypno
Now where did I say something invalidates your suggestions?
Then what the hell is your point when you keep harping on how you don't remember the old rules (but you remember they're not what I suggested)?  I tried to figure out what your point was, and that's all I could possibly come up with.  Did I miss a sage gem of wisdom here?

Quote from: Hypno
Ummm... If a person leaves, how is he supposed to answer my poll? I'll e-mail them? How do I know they aren't just on vacation for a week? Or should I make a poll 'If you'd leave tomorrow, then why?' or 'Are you going to leave? If yes, why?'. Sounds stupid imo...
You could ask why people are less active.  Plenty of people are significantly less active but still check in on occasion.  You could also mass-email people about it like was done with the rules poll, to catch some of those who really don't log in anymore.

One would assume that admins would consider such information valuable to running their forum-- that is, if they care at all about retaining users.  You've lost a number of your major content contributers and you don't even care to find out why?

As I've said, I can only imagine that you must be expecting another unflattering result.

Quote from: Hypno
So I think I'm going back to the 'not answering ie. hitting my head against the wall' mode.
Aww, but I want to read more about how you're physically unable to copy&paste! :(

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Offline leria83

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Reply #243 on: August 07, 2008, 03:38:32 AM
I'm just curious on the outcome of these rules suggestions. I mean, are the rules staying the same? New additions? A whole new set of rules?  Are we all getting pet llamas? I have no idea what is going on. Can we get some kind of update or something? Ya know, something that doesn't take weeks to announce.



Offline Matthias

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Reply #244 on: August 07, 2008, 07:14:51 AM
@leira83: Well, Hypno asked for suggestion what changes the user (which voted that the want some changes) would like to have. So everyone could contribute and send him what he wants to have changed, but it seems not so many people did it (myself included perhaps 4 or 5 people, as far as I know).



Offline Lucs

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Reply #245 on: August 07, 2008, 07:30:17 AM
I think she was more wondering what's gonna happen now that the poll is over and that the suggestions has been sent.

First, we talk about the suggestion and then we change the rule so it fits better to everyone. Though I think it'd be good to put a deadline, without deadline, things always take longer.


Offline darkcat21

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Reply #246 on: August 16, 2008, 10:31:22 PM
Mmmm, now that I can post again and since you guys were talking about this... I'm going to say why I'm not active (and I won't)... mmm, maybe because some staff members treats me and my contributions like shit?

hi there


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #247 on: August 17, 2008, 12:19:09 AM
some staff members treats me and my contributions like shit?
Exactly.  And most of the great contributors who have now gone inactive have a very, very similar story to tell.

Anyone who somehow infringes upon PN's imaginary status as the World's Only Person Who Knows Anything At All About X (c) will be ignored at best, and in most cases treated like shit or actively villified.  Especially if their contributions are interesting, factual, or useful, because that's what poses the biggest threat to PN's "information monopoly" and her attempts to twist facts to fit her impossible-to-prove "theories" about X.

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Offline Aerce

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Reply #248 on: August 17, 2008, 06:50:38 AM
I haven't participated in this forum drama that seems to be going on at some level..

Anyway, so far I have liked being here but I guess that is obvious.



Offline Sander

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Reply #249 on: August 17, 2008, 09:58:31 AM
some staff members treats me and my contributions like shit?
Exactly.  And most of the great contributors who have now gone inactive have a very, very similar story to tell.

Anyone who somehow infringes upon PN's imaginary status as the World's Only Person Who Knows Anything At All About X (c) will be ignored at best, and in most cases treated like shit or actively villified.  Especially if their contributions are interesting, factual, or useful, because that's what poses the biggest threat to PN's "information monopoly" and her attempts to twist facts to fit her impossible-to-prove "theories" about X.
We have a saying here, that goes a bit like- 'how you to the village, so the village to you'. I'm not saying I appreciate everyone's contributions and I'm sure most of us here do, but using it as a shield of some kind, as an excuse to act like you did, is well... shit!

And I haven't seen anyone ignored for their contribution. Some people answer on some topics, others on others. I, for example haven't read any posts at the D.T.R. section, because it's the one band I'm not that interested in. I'm sure most of us have topics they won't answer, just because they have nothing to say. You see, we can't dictate what people think or where they post. If someone's contributions are ignored by everyone, then they are probably worth ignoring. Or do you say that the staff forces everyone to say what we want? No! Everyone has an opinion and is free to express it. Simple.

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #250 on: August 17, 2008, 08:34:37 PM
Thank you, Hypno.  Once again, you've done an excellent job of proving my point.

As you know, this has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you like D.T.R or reply to posts in the D.T.R section (what the fuck?).  I honestly could not care less about either of those points.

This is about how-- as you've just illustrated-- you and your friends like to pretend that I'm some kind of troll who has never done anything on this site but complain and then make a few token comments about D.T.R for no other reason than to create what you call a "shield".

Unfortunately, that's complete and utter bullshit.

In the first six months or so that I've been on X Freaks, I averaged about 9 posts a day and posted in at least half of the subforums.  And that wasn't useless one-sentence "I agree" posts either.  That was useful information, answers to people's questions about X, commentary and opinions with explanations of why I think/feel that way, etc.  In short, I generated a shitload of quality content and activity for your site, because I liked the place.  You will notice that my user statistics neatly corroborate the fact that I've made a whole lot of posts in a variety of different subforums.

As for darkcat, he was the best news source on your site.  And naturally, because PN apparently feels threatened by news and information sources she can't control, steps were taken to censor darkcat and shut him down.  Remember, PN censoring darkcat and attempting to censor me, when neither of us had broken any rules, was part of what started this whole thing.

Once all the bullshit started, did I become less inclined toward generating content for your site?  Fuck yes I did.  As darkcat said, treating people like shit and ignoring their contributions to your site-- and by "ignoring" I mean "pretending someone is a troll and never contributed anything useful simply because you've decided you don't like the guy"-- is not exactly a way to inspire people back to activity.

Like I said, thanks for proving my point.

As for "acting like I did", show me where I've ever broken a rule here.  If I've broken rules, then copy&paste the incident here (if you're physically able to do so) and ban me or whatever.

The fact is that you and your staff friends have broken more of your own rules than I ever have.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Sander

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Reply #251 on: August 17, 2008, 10:11:13 PM
This is about how-- as you've just illustrated-- you and your friends like to pretend that I'm some kind of troll who has never done anything on this site but complain and then make a few token comments about D.T.R for no other reason than to create what you call a "shield".
Lately, as I pointed out, you have only complained. I have never said that you only complain so stop accusing me of things I haven't done. And saying that it's wrong to ban someone for breaking the rules just because he/she contributes much, is bullshit.

In the first six months or so that I've been on X Freaks, I averaged about 9 posts a day and posted in at least half of the subforums.  And that wasn't useless one-sentence "I agree" posts either.  That was useful information, answers to people's questions about X, commentary and opinions with explanations of why I think/feel that way, etc.  In short, I generated a shitload of quality content and activity for your site, because I liked the place.  You will notice that my user statistics neatly corroborate the fact that I've made a whole lot of posts in a variety of different subforums.
And who said anything otherwise?

Once all the bullshit started, did I become less inclined toward generating content for your site?  Fuck yes I did.  As darkcat said, treating people like shit and ignoring their contributions to your site-- and by "ignoring" I mean "pretending someone is a troll and never contributed anything useful simply because you've decided you don't like the guy"-- is not exactly a way to inspire people back to activity.
I don't like the guy? I considered darkcat a friend before he started acting like a five year old. And I still don't consider him my 'enemy' or anything. As I said, he can't break the rules just because he has contributed much.

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #252 on: August 18, 2008, 09:44:40 PM
Quote from: Hypno
Lately, as I pointed out, you have only complained.
You mean when you derailed a serious question thread offtopic with your obsessive-compulsive analysis of my last however many posts?  Haha, that was funny, I had no idea you were such a Hollywood fanboy as to actually bother with shit like that!

As for "lately": as darkcat and I both said, don't expect people to keep contributing to your site when you treat your best contributors like shit.  This isn't exactly rocket science.

Quote from: Hypno
And saying that it's wrong to ban someone for breaking the rules just because he/she contributes much, is bullshit.
When the fuck did I ever say it was wrong to ban someone for breaking rules?
Welcome back, strawmen!  Oh, how I have missed thee! :D

So, if I've generated a large amount of content for your site and I haven't broken any rules, what exactly seems to be your problem?  Is PN still butthurt that anyone other than herself knows anything about X, or what?

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Sander

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Reply #253 on: August 18, 2008, 10:30:33 PM
You mean when you derailed a serious question thread offtopic with your obsessive-compulsive analysis of my last however many posts?  Haha, that was funny, I had no idea you were such a Hollywood fanboy as to actually bother with shit like that!
Yes I mean the thread where I tried to explain you that lately you have only been posting in certain threads. It didn't take more than a few clicks and some mouse rolling. And for the record, I'm not your fanboy and probably never will be.

As for "lately": as darkcat and I both said, don't expect people to keep contributing to your site when you treat your best contributors like shit.  This isn't exactly rocket science.
As I tried to point out, I don't treat people differently because they have been contributing more, they are not 'better' and I'm not treating them 'better'.

When the fuck did I ever say it was wrong to ban someone for breaking rules?
Welcome back, strawmen!  Oh, how I have missed thee! :D

So, if I've generated a large amount of content for your site and I haven't broken any rules, what exactly seems to be your problem?  Is PN still butthurt that anyone other than herself knows anything about X, or what?
You said that we treat contributors like shit, I say we treat them the way we treat them because they broke the rules (ok, they is a wrong word, I only mean darkcat here and you probably do also). And what is my problem? You and darkcat started this thread again. I only replied to you (which, I admit, is really a stupid thing to do).

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #254 on: August 19, 2008, 03:59:48 AM
Quote from: Hypno
Yes I mean the thread where I tried to explain you that lately you have only been posting in certain threads.
By derailing a serious question into an embarassingly offtopic ad hominem whine.

Quote from: Hypno
It didn't take more than a few clicks and some mouse rolling.
Good thing it didn't require any copy&pasting!

Quote from: Hypno
And for the record, I'm not your fanboy and probably never will be.
Not believing this, given how much you clearly enjoy our one-on-one talks.  Sure you don't want my autograph, now? ;)

Quote from: Hypno
As I tried to point out, I don't treat people differently because they have been contributing more, they are not 'better' and I'm not treating them 'better'.
Damn straight you don't treat them better.  As I've said, the more factual information or news anyone contributes, the worse you and your staff friends treat them.

Quote from: Hypno
You said that we treat contributors like shit, I say we treat them the way we treat them because they broke the rules (ok, they is a wrong word, I only mean darkcat here and you probably do also).
Darkcat had been treated like shit since long before he was banned.  I've been treated like shit despite having never broken any rules.  I can think offhand of a couple other people in precisely the same boat I am.  I won't name them as I'm not sure whether or not they want to be involved, but I'm certain you know who I mean (and no, I don't mean MiscastDice).

Quote from: Hypno
And what is my problem? You and darkcat started this thread again.
Darkcat did nothing more than explain why he no longer contributes in the way he used to; I then did the same.  If this is not against the rules, then why do you find it to be a problem?

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Sander

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Reply #255 on: August 19, 2008, 10:41:46 AM
If you see my answers to you as a problem then I'll gladly stop answering.

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Offline ferret

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Reply #256 on: August 19, 2008, 12:50:17 PM
As I've said, the more factual information or news anyone contributes, the worse you and your staff friends treat them.

Anyone, you sure? Even our "staff friends"?

And I sure hope you're aware of your hypocrisy of calling staff members out on mocking users while doing so yourself.  :)

RIP


Offline X-J

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Reply #257 on: August 20, 2008, 07:35:23 PM
I haven't read everything in this thread. Here's just my theory and thoughts...

I think a lot of people who are aware of this discussion are bothered by the relatively stringent and visible, almost Hobbesian role the rules have got. It would be a demonstration of trust directed at the members if slightly less policing were done.

Now, I know Hypno is a to-be-lawyer, PN is an elderly and apparently quite disciplined former Briton. As a "cultural reader", it may be that there's some incommensurability between this "strict" approach and the ideology that X listeners at least tacitly approve of.  ;D Please note that "less policing" does not mean anarchy or encouragement to overthrow governments. My God, if this were the case, no-one could aggressively criticise society without being suspected of societal violence etc.! It is commonly thought that severe criticism and even disagreement of "fundamentals" is the sign of an "Enlightened" society. I think the same applies here. The more colour, the better: people know usually "how to" behave but they won't, most of them, tolerate unfair treatment.

In addition, should the approach of the staff be more lax and invisible, people would feel more spontaneous and at ease. Explicit reinforcement of law and massive bureaucratization kills creativity, and the task of this forum, to my knowledge, is built around a most creative, even liquid institution that is X. To this is connected the desire to "Disneyfy" X Japan by worrying a lot about social acceptability, language, the audience, lawyers, etc. All these are fairly anglo-american themes culturally, and not Japanese, generalizing broadly. In this issue I would also trust the members and their behaviour. Increased trust, I believe, in turn discourages rebellious attitudes.

Thanks.

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Offline ferret

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Reply #258 on: August 20, 2008, 07:54:43 PM
PN is an elderly and apparently quite disciplined former Briton

Not quite, more like a middle aged, former German.

There were, however, two main reasons why the new rules were made:

1. Hypno's been planning to do it anyway, just didn't know WHEN
2. To prevent PN and other staff members from abusing their powers because there was no way she'd get de-admined or even banned

Somehow this got twisted around and obviously some members got the impression that the rules were established because we didn't trust THEM and wanted to give PN free hand. AND, while many members complained about the first rule because it's common sense, this was the rule that has been broken most.

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Offline Sander

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Reply #259 on: August 20, 2008, 08:52:14 PM
And I'm not a to-be-a-lawyer... I'm taking law as a side subject (so I can get a masters degree later, if I want to, without getting the bachelor first), but my primary subject is International Relations, so I'll more probably get a job in the foreign ministry... But we'll never know :)

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Offline darkcat21

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Reply #260 on: August 20, 2008, 09:11:41 PM
Quote
2. To prevent PN and other staff members from abusing their powers because there was no way she'd get de-admined or even banned
But nothing changed... because she abussed her powers when she created the Paris topic, which actually was just another version of the Taiwan thing (is there anyone who still believes the story that it was a mistake? XD) and nothing has been done.

And really... nobody asked for new rules, we wanted PN to be de-admin and we had many reasons why she should be... and instead you created new rules which had nothing to do with what PN had been doing for several months.

hi there


Offline ferret

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Reply #261 on: August 20, 2008, 09:19:26 PM
But nothing changed... because she abussed her powers when she created the Paris topic, which actually was just another version of the Taiwan thing (is there anyone who still believes the story that it was a mistake? XD) and nothing has been done.

I think we said it took three indicents to de-admin (like, three warnings to get temp ban for regular users) but I may be wrong, I don't really remember everything we discussed about this indicent on those other threads, but I recall something like that.

And really... nobody asked for new rules, we wanted PN to be de-admin and we had many reasons why she should be... and instead you created new rules which had nothing to do with what PN had been doing for several months.

Yes, and as I said, de-adminning was NO option for us. And I think the rules DO have something to do with her since she hasn't really been on a deleting/editing "crusade" for months now.

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Offline darkcat21

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Reply #262 on: August 20, 2008, 09:23:21 PM
Quote
(like, three warnings to get temp ban for regular users)
Then explain me why I was banned with just one warn?

Quote
And I think the rules DO have something to do with her since she hasn't really been on a deleting/editing "crusade" for months now.
That's because there haven't been a lot of news not because there are new rules, if I was active and there was another X concert announced, I can imagine me posting the news (or somebody also not "friend of PN" and she deleting the topic, and creating another one just to take credits....
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 09:25:38 PM by darkcat21 »

hi there


Offline ferret

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Reply #263 on: August 20, 2008, 09:29:56 PM
Then explain me why I was banned with just one warn?

Which time? The second time? I thought you wanted it?

That's because there haven't posted a lot of news not because there are new rules, if I was active and there was another X concert announced, I can imagine me posting the news (or somebody also not "friend of PN" and she deleting the topic, and creating another one just to take credits....

Well the only way to find out would be trying, wouldn't it?  ;) See, if you post something and she edits/deletes she gets a warning, if she does so more than once, she get's de adminned, if she leaves your posts alone then it's fine. IMO that's a win/win situation for you. (UNLESS it's YM, of course, because according to the rules, those are not allowed and can and will be removed whether people here like it or not.)

RIP


Offline darkcat21

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Reply #264 on: August 20, 2008, 09:41:24 PM
Quote
Which time? The second time? I thought you wanted it?
The 'second jrr' thing.

Quote
Well the only way to find out would be trying, wouldn't it?  Wink See, if you post something and she edits/deletes she gets a warning, if she does so more than once, she get's de adminned, if she leaves your posts alone then it's fine. IMO that's a win/win situation for you. (UNLESS it's YM, of course, because according to the rules, those are not allowed and can and will be removed whether people here like it or not.)
Well... don't worry because that won't happen again since I won't post any news.

The sadly thing is that we won't never seen a public apology for everything she did (treating my contributions like shit, deleting the Taiwan topic, MD posts, Hollywood PM, bad manners towards some users, etc, etc, etc.)

hi there


Offline ferret

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Reply #265 on: August 20, 2008, 09:52:09 PM
The 'second jrr' thing.

But right above your comment it said don't write that again or you'll get banned, and well you did, and got banned. That was expected (and childish if I may say), but you can't tell me you believed you'd get away with it. The thread was full of "JRR2 lulz", "this", "agreed" comments which contributed NOTHING to the discussion when numerous people asked to only post constuctive comments, that's why the "temporary rule" (I don't know how to call it) was established, because it was way out of contol and a real mess.


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Offline darkcat21

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Reply #266 on: August 20, 2008, 10:02:04 PM
Quote
But right above your comment it said don't write that again or you'll get banned, and well you did, and got banned.
But saying "don't write this or you'll get banned" is just one warning... And actually in that topic, PN post was even more stupid XD

hi there


Offline ferret

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Reply #267 on: August 20, 2008, 10:12:42 PM
That was a rule specifically for the thread, a measure which shouldn't have been needed to be taken but was because of childish/unconstructive comments/behaviour. If it tells you "if you write something like this again your post will get deleted and you'll get banned" then one can assume that there will be no further warning.

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #268 on: August 21, 2008, 12:47:49 AM
Great post, X-J.

As I've said, the more factual information or news anyone contributes, the worse you and your staff friends treat them.
Anyone, you sure? Even our "staff friends"?
You're right, "anyone" wasn't quite right.  More like "the more factual information or news anyone other than PN contributes", the worse they're treated.  Like I said, it all goes back to protecting PN's imaginary status as the world's only source of X information.

Quote from: ferret
And I sure hope you're aware of your hypocrisy of calling staff members out on mocking users while doing so yourself.  :)
The rather significant difference between myself and the staff members being that they're on staff.  I'm a normal user.  They, on the other hand, have been "hired" to enforce the rules.

I sure hope you're aware of the ridiculousness of implying that it's ever acceptable for staff members to mock other users or violate their own rules.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline ferret

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Reply #269 on: August 21, 2008, 01:00:39 AM

I sure hope you're aware of the ridiculousness of implying that it's ever acceptable for staff members to mock other users or violate their own rules.

Except that I never implied it was acceptable for us. What I'm saying is it's funny that you do it yourself. (yep, not acceptable, for anyone, that includes normal users)

Like I said, it all goes back to protecting PN's imaginary status as the world's only source of X information.

I hate to break it to you but there is no PN fanclub in the mod subforums.

RIP