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BizKiTRoAcH · 39763

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Offline Anna

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Reply #210 on: July 25, 2008, 09:51:44 AM
Well, I think that many people have been made fun of and attacked for their opinions here, not just Lucs.
And the macro was indeed out of place.

Pony rocks!


Offline ferret

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Reply #211 on: July 25, 2008, 09:57:39 AM
I'm not saying he was the only one but him being mocked because he became a mod? Come on. Being a mod =/= voicing an opinion. That made it look like becoming a member of the staff is like betraying your homeland or something.

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Offline Anna

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Reply #212 on: July 25, 2008, 09:58:49 AM
I am sure many people who posted here do not feel it this way.

Pony rocks!


Offline Kasparek

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Reply #213 on: July 25, 2008, 10:08:09 AM
lol you guys have way too much free time



Offline Sander

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Reply #214 on: July 25, 2008, 11:07:57 AM
Oh, stop trying to weasel out of everything, will you?  Telling someone to edit a post which did not violate any rules, along with an implied legal threat, is harassment.  It's a bullying attempt.  The fact that it was funny and didn't work doesn't make it any less of an attempt.
I can tell you to jump off a cliff, even though there aren't any rules that say you should. I can even write a formal letter that asks you to. Would you call it bullying or terrorizing?

And now MD is banned, and ferret is allowed to go on making snide personal attacks at him.  I'm not saying MD's ban was not earned, breaking the rules is breaking the rules.  But the double-standard is painfully obvious.  I thought the rules apply to staff as well?
You see anything wrong with a post-> Click the "Report post to moderator button". That simple.

Given that everyone-- staff included-- has publicly mocked the photo disclaimer rule from the moment it was implemented, I HIGHLY doubt that many opinions were heard (or acknowledged) about that rule, for one.  It all adds up to looking like you and PN rammed the final version of the rules through with little to no interest in staff feedback.  I hope you can prove me wrong.
Oh I rammed the final version of the rules, but not with PN. In fact, I rammed it as a lighter version of what PN wanted, with little interest of what she wanted. Want me to prove something? Do it yourself. Apply for a mod position and get it, then read all you want in the mods subforum. I, my dear sir, don't have to prove you anything.

5. (NEW!) They're there because, months ago, darkcat called PN a puta, nevermind that there were already rules in place to handle that and the majority of the new rules have nothing to do with putas whatsoever.
Don't make up things, I never said that I made the new rules because dc called PN a puta.

Please tell me how this doesn't sound EXTREMELY Big Brother-like. Any informationship the staff determines to be inaccurate is going to be removed? What a joke.
Hmmm where did you get that text? I bet it's the default License of Agreement of the forum? Well, we didn't write it (we should indeed change it though). And the forum is run by the rules we made.


And I happen to agree with ferret. What's the point of this topic anyway? To whine? To find faults in what we do? To prove us wrong as much as you can? What will happen? What should happen? What do you want to happen?

I'm seriously considering just ignoring this thread (though my nature probably insists me to keep on responding = hitting my head against a brick wall).

This is my administrator color.


Offline MillieQOF

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Reply #215 on: July 25, 2008, 02:29:04 PM
I won't post further in this thread or any of the likes that might be created in the future.
If you feel like misinterpreting stuff I say and questioning me about it like Hollywood did in his latest post, please PM me.



Offline Hollywood

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Reply #216 on: July 25, 2008, 07:34:14 PM
Quote from: ferret
What happened to your rock n' roll forum dream now? "Fuck the rules", right? Or did you mean "fuck the rules unless you're part of the staff, then shut the hell up and let the poeple do as they please"?
I never said "fuck the rules".  If you'd like to claim that I did, find it and quote me.
It's unfortunate that you've chosen to ignore the fact that, throughout this thread and others, I have advocated FOR a rule against insulting others.  For example, I had suggested this as a set of rules I would like to see:
Quote from: Hollywood
1. Don't insult or harass other users, and don't post other users' PMs without their permission.
2. No spamming.
3. When posting translations or rumors, please include a disclaimer to remind others that there may be mistakes or other inaccuracies.
4. Maximum avatar size is (whatever).
5. Don't share audio or video files outside of the sharing subforum.

Ad hominem insults are not appropriate for MD to make, and they're not appropriate for you to make either.  They're also against the current forum rules.  You're the one violating forum rules here, not me.

As for the "rock'n'roll" thing, I was referring (which I thought was clear) to the overall atmosphere and attitude of the forum, the administrative style used around here, and the abundance of unnecessary rules.

Quote from: ferret
I'm fed up with Lucs getting shit for being "on our side" (wtf guys, seriously)
I couldn't care less whose "side" Lucs is on or whether or not he's a mod.  I didn't post the macro, I thought it was stupid.
However, I disagree with much of what he's said on this thread, and I'm not exactly delighted with how he has made a hobby of telling me I said things I never said and then attacking me for them (strawman arguments).  All I've done to him is clear up the false and misleading statements he's made about me.  If, as I said before, he feels that that makes him look ridiculous, maybe he should consider that next time before spreading bullshit about others.

Quote from: Hypno
I can tell you to jump off a cliff, even though there aren't any rules that say you should. I can even write a formal letter that asks you to. Would you call it bullying or terrorizing?
Uh, if you wrote a formal letter asking me to kill myself?  Fuck yes I'd consider that bullying.

Quote from: Hypno
You see anything wrong with a post-> Click the "Report post to moderator button". That simple.
Given the (rather amusing) attempts lately by multiple staff members to tag team me on this thread, I don't find that particularly useful, thanks.

Quote from: Hypno
Apply for a mod position and get it, then read all you want in the mods subforum.
Haha, no.  Why the hell would I want to mod here?  And of course you don't have to prove anything to me, nor to anyone.  It would simply be in your best interest to do so now and then, in the interest of creating an atmosphere based around trust and transparency rather than subterfuge and intrigue.  As I've said, a lack of transparency breeds suspicion, warranted or not.

Quote from: Hypno
Don't make up things, I never said that I made the new rules because dc called PN a puta.
You claimed that there was previously no rule about not insulting people, and mentioned darkcat calling PN a puta as an example of the supposed shortcomings of the old rules.

By the way, you didn't answer my question about whether you find PN's treatment of other users on the hide death thread to be an example of appropriate behavior.

Quote from: Hypno
What's the point of this topic anyway? To whine? To find faults in what we do? To prove us wrong as much as you can? What will happen? What should happen? What do you want to happen?
Well, I did try suggesting more solutions.  You told me you didn't want to hear them. 

Quote from: MillieQOF
If you feel like misinterpreting stuff I say and questioning me about it like Hollywood did in his latest post, please PM me.
For the record, this is what I said to you in my post prior to this one:
Quote from: Hollywood
Quote from: MillieQOF
Everyone has understood and respected that you have your feelings against the rules - now can you respect that everyone doesn't like being terrorized and insulted (like PN) or want to read about MD's fantasies?
So now I've "terrorized and insulted" PN?  Ha, good one!  So now pointing out when User A harasses and insults User B counts as harassment of User A?

Examples of me "terrorizing" PN, por favor?
You claimed that I've terrorized PN, I asked for examples of where I've done that.  If I've misinterpreted what you said, then explain what you meant.

And yes, if you make a false public claim that I have done something which I haven't, I AM going to "question you about it".  Publicly.  If you're going to claim I did something to someone, back it up with proof.  Give me examples of where I was "terrorizing" PN.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Sander

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Reply #217 on: July 25, 2008, 08:49:43 PM
I won't post further in this thread or any of the likes that might be created in the future.
If you feel like misinterpreting stuff I say and questioning me about it like Hollywood did in his latest post, please PM me.
Same here by the way.

I'll always answer PMs though.

This is my administrator color.


Offline MillieQOF

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Reply #218 on: July 25, 2008, 10:10:49 PM
You claimed that I've terrorized PN, I asked for examples of where I've done that.  If I've misinterpreted what you said, then explain what you meant.

And yes, if you make a false public claim that I have done something which I haven't, I AM going to "question you about it".  Publicly.  If you're going to claim I did something to someone, back it up with proof.  Give me examples of where I was "terrorizing" PN.
If you want to continue this so badly, then can you PM exactly where I said that you in person has terrorized or insulted PN?
I never wrote once in that post that "Hollywood has insulted/terrorized PN". By "you" in that post I meant everyone who's opposing the staff (especially you and MD) with everything they've got right now. And I wrote that "you" seemingly do not care for fellow users' feelings - that it is OK to terrorize/insult other users like what has happened to PN in the past.

Please stop twisting everything your way because there's really NO POINT AT ALL TO IT - and if you still want to discuss it I'll be available by PM.
Otherwise you will not get further replies.
(I replied to this one last time because I'm assuming you totally missed the half of my last post that specifically said I won't post here anymore. Guess you'll have to actually start reading posts before questioning them.)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 10:15:26 PM by MillieQOF »



Offline Hollywood

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Reply #219 on: July 25, 2008, 11:58:59 PM
Quote from: Hypno
Same here by the way.

I'll always answer PMs though.
No surprise there, in the past you've always resorted to avoidance when you became unable to answer my questions.  No reason this time should be any different.

Of course, your public avoidance of my questions is an answer in itself.  I find your lack of public response to this part especially interesting:
Quote from: Hollywood
By the way, you didn't answer my question about whether you find PN's treatment of other users on the hide death thread to be an example of appropriate behavior.
Because I've asked you that twice now, and you've avoided it twice.

Quote from: MillieQOF
If you want to continue this so badly, then can you PM exactly where I said that you in person has terrorized or insulted PN?
I never wrote once in that post that "Hollywood has insulted/terrorized PN".
This is the full text of your post; I've highlighted the particularly relevant parts:
Quote from: MillieQOF
Really, Hollywood. All I'm saying is that anyone here is free to be a rocker/rebel and whatever. Use whatever  language you feel is necessary and talk about things that you think are cool. Just don't offend or be a dick towards other people.  Everyone on this board are real live people with real feelings.
Everyone has understood and respected that you have your feelings against the rules - now can you respect that everyone doesn't like being terrorized and insulted (like PN) or want to read about MD's fantasies?

And don't tell me this is impossible, because it is possible.
The post was clearly addressed to me.  Clearly.  If it was about "everyone who's opposing the staff", why did you call me by name?  If MD was supposedly included in "you", why did you mention him separately?

Even if you make a cowardly attempt to back out of it like this:
Quote from: MillieQOF
By "you" in that post I meant everyone who's opposing the staff (especially you and MD) with everything they've got right now. And I wrote that "you" seemingly do not care for fellow users' feelings - that it is OK to terrorize/insult other users like what has happened to PN in the past.
...You're still talking about me.  I am not MD.  If you are including me in "you", show me where I terrorized PN.

You made a public claim, now back it up.  Show me, here so that everyone can see, where I terrorized PN.  Or keep your promised silence, and thereby proving to everyone that your claim is a crock of shit.  Up to you.

And before you start with any kind of "baawwwwww, Hollywood's picking on me!": if you don't like me calling you out, don't spread bullshit about me that you can't back up.  It's that easy.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Sander

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Reply #220 on: July 26, 2008, 12:07:24 AM
Not answering anything (because this topic is not leading anywhere, not because I'm unable to answer any questions), but taking advantage of our silence here and saying stuff like that is what I'd call low.

Again, if anyone has any more questions, feel free to PM me, I'd be glad to answer.

This is my administrator color.


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #221 on: July 26, 2008, 01:31:50 AM
Not answering anything (because this topic is not leading anywhere, not because I'm unable to answer any questions), but taking advantage of our silence here and saying stuff like that is what I'd call low.
"Taking advantage of your silence"?  It's not like your fingers have fallen off and you're suddenly unable to type public posts (if that happened and I "took advantage" of that, sure, THAT would be low).

But as it is, you've chosen silence for yourself.  That choice is, in itself, an extremely clear statement.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Sander

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Reply #222 on: July 26, 2008, 08:55:09 AM
But as it is, you've chosen silence for yourself.  That choice is, in itself, an extremely clear statement.
THAT is low. Reading out false statements from our actions knowing that we won't answer.

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Offline Maya

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Reply #223 on: July 26, 2008, 09:23:58 AM
OMG. And the drama goes on ... It's getting tiring more and more and I, personally, can totally understand, that the staff now doesn't want to answer anymore, one after another. Not because they are a bunch of cowards or know that they are wrong or anything ... But it's getting more and more ridiculous with every post, because every little misunderstanding turns into even bigger drama.

Well ... Hollywood. I have nothing against you, not at all. xD; But you are getting lost in details that much that it's really hard to keep up with what this whole thing even is about °_°
E.g this one -

This is the full text of your post; I've highlighted the particularly relevant parts:
Quote from: MillieQOF
Really, Hollywood. All I'm saying is that anyone here is free to be a rocker/rebel and whatever. Use whatever  language you feel is necessary and talk about things that you think are cool. Just don't offend or be a dick towards other people.  Everyone on this board are real live people with real feelings.
Everyone has understood and respected that you have your feelings against the rules - now can you respect that everyone doesn't like being terrorized and insulted (like PN) or want to read about MD's fantasies?

And don't tell me this is impossible, because it is possible.
The post was clearly addressed to me.  Clearly.  If it was about "everyone who's opposing the staff", why did you call me by name?  If MD was supposedly included in "you", why did you mention him separately?

Even if you make a cowardly attempt to back out of it like this:

When I read Millies statement I understand it this way:
If anyone (all users) wants to speak free, be a rebel or whatever - he is free to do so! But nobody should behave like an asshole and terrorize people - and I am pretty sure she DIDN'T intend to say that YOU did that. But other users did and that's not really cool.
I am wondering how to get clear, because I know what to say but hardly how to express it ...
Eh. Millie knows that you (yes, you. And MD. And many other users here) have something against the new rules, find them to strict, etc. But that you (yes, you again) should understand that other people might think they're good or neccessary, because they don't want to be offended by other users (no, NOT you.).

I hope I got it right.
I usually like getting lsot in details ... but not this time. All this stuff really gets tooo long and it's just exeggarated. I'm sorry to say this, but imo you are atm just overreacting. I understood at the beginning, what your problem is ... but I think the whole discussion is totally out of proportion to the goal you're trying to achieve. (btw, what was this EXACTLY? Changing the rules a bit again ... and ...? What? Do you want the mods to admit they are wrong, do you want PN to be de-admined? What do you want?)

I mean ... there is all this fighint going on here while the rest of the forum is still going well (yeah, i really think so) ... So I think right at the moment it is pretty unneccessary. Just my thoughts. ._.

And some last thing (xD I'm done soon!): About the band's attitude stuff and how to talk on the forum - nobody ever said we should behave like nuns here or something ;3 I'm sure if you would write something in a thread like "DAMN, this show was so fucking amazing, it blew me away!" nobody would say ANYTHING.
And that's the point ... I don't think all the 'strict' rules are really that neccessary, BUT I also don't see how they really determine YOU (since you aren't a troll. Or some kind of swearing machine. xD Or making stupid little comments everywhere ... etc.pp.)

So, sorry for the long post, I really hope my point got clear.
Have a nice day xD;
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 09:26:24 AM by Maya »

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Offline Uncontrol

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Reply #224 on: July 26, 2008, 10:17:02 AM
Aw what ever Maya says i will agree ;3



Offline Hollywood

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Reply #225 on: July 28, 2008, 05:51:52 PM
Quote from: Hypno
THAT is low. Reading out false statements from our actions knowing that we won't answer.
As I said: you chose silence of your own free will.  That's a statement.  I don't see how you can possibly claim otherwise.

If you don't like people pointing out the fact that you're refusing to answer questions publicly, there's an easy way to fix that: answer the questions.  In the time it takes you to complain that I'm "taking advantage of your silence", you could have answered my questions and proven me wrong about your inability to provide adequate public answers for them.  Your continued silence only furthers my point.

Quote from: Maya
When I read Millies statement I understand it this way:
If anyone (all users) wants to speak free, be a rebel or whatever - he is free to do so! But nobody should behave like an asshole and terrorize people - and I am pretty sure she DIDN'T intend to say that YOU did that. But other users did and that's not really cool.
I am wondering how to get clear, because I know what to say but hardly how to express it ...
Eh. Millie knows that you (yes, you. And MD. And many other users here) have something against the new rules, find them to strict, etc. But that you (yes, you again) should understand that other people might think they're good or neccessary, because they don't want to be offended by other users (no, NOT you.).
I'm not sure why then she addressed the post to me ("Really, Hollywood.").  And of course people are welcome to like the new rules if they want.  According to the poll, about 2/5 of voters do like them, though the majority-- about 3/5-- would like at least something about them to be changed.

But as for what Millie meant, I'd really like for her to explain it herself.  I think there's one yes/no question I can ask that will sufficiently determine intent, so:

Millie, do you believe that have I terrorized PN?

Quote from: Maya
(btw, what was this EXACTLY? Changing the rules a bit again ... and ...? What? Do you want the mods to admit they are wrong, do you want PN to be de-admined? What do you want?)
Ideally, I would personally like:
- The rules to be "rolled back" to their previous version.  If the previous version is supposedly lost forever, then "something like the previous version" is fine.
- The administrating/moderating style around here to change.  Some staff members are doing just fine of course, but there have been many recent occurrences of double-standards where staff members are allowed to break rules (especially when it comes to ad hominem insults against others) while regular users are not.  Staff, admins especially, should set an example for the kind of behavior they want to see on the forum.  This obviously includes staff following their own rules.
- More administrative transparency, no more attempts to shut users up or privatize conversations when they become uncomfortable for staff.  Refusing to discuss issues with users or answer questions publicly is ridiculous.  Staff should be willing and able to publicly explain themselves and their actions.
- A public apology to users (as a whole) would be appreciated, especially from PN and Hypno.
- While I do think PN deserves to be de-adminned, as I have said many times before I am perfectly fine with Hypno's decision that she will be de-adminned if she acts inappropriately again.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #226 on: August 01, 2008, 05:57:15 PM
Quote from: Hypno, in the locked rules poll thread in the Suggestions forum
I would like to remind you that I'm still waiting for your suggestions for changing the rules.

So far I have gotten 0 (zero, nil, none) PMs and if this continues, I'll just assume that you voted the wrong thing and didn't notice that you could change your vote. I don't think that's the case though.
That's funny.  I distinctly remember already having made my suggestions, which you (Hypno) already read and commented on:

Quote from: Hollywood
So, for normal users:
1. Don't insult or harass other users, and don't post other users' PMs without their permission.
2. No spamming.
3. When posting translations or rumors, please include a disclaimer to remind others that there may be mistakes or other inaccuracies.
4. Maximum avatar size is (whatever).
5. Don't share audio or video files outside of the sharing subforum.

Why are any rules necessary beyond that?

By the way, the admin/mod rules are actually fine, the only problem there is that they aren't consistently upheld or enforced and that the admins (note plural) bend them at will.
Page 5 of this thread.
http://www.x-freaks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2705.msg45250#msg45250

Or are you going to claim this didn't "count" because it wasn't PMed?  Well, I can always copy&paste this post I'm making into a PM if you would like to be so petty as to demand me to do so.  Just let me know.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Sander

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Reply #227 on: August 01, 2008, 06:32:08 PM
Yes, PM them.

This is my administrator color.


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #228 on: August 01, 2008, 09:24:25 PM
Hahaha, are you serious?  So you're honestly claiming it didn't "count" because it wasn't PMed?  That's hilarious!

One would think that if you had any sincere interest in reading and considering people's suggestions, you'd APPRECIATE suggestions posted on threads, rather than going to great lengths to ignore them and then getting off on the notion of making users jump through hoops.

Then again, if you had any sincere interest in reading and considering people's suggestions, you would probably have done so at the outset rather than waiting two months and letting your forum go to shit.  (Are you actually surprised that no one's PMing you?  Everyone's already been offering suggestions for two fucking months.)

Oh well, I think this says it all right here:
Quote from: Hollywood
Well, I can always copy&paste this post I'm making into a PM if you would like to be so petty as to demand me to do so.  Just let me know.
Quote from: Hypno
Yes, PM them.

Now THAT is classic.

One might wonder what happened to your hands that has made it possible for you to type posts but impossible for you to copy&paste my suggestions on your own, but hey, I'll be the good guy and help you out.  PMed.

Can I offer you any financial assistance in getting your mysterious hand injury checked out?

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Sander

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Reply #229 on: August 01, 2008, 10:44:16 PM
I prefer properly written PMs (which I still didn't get, from you that is, but I guess I'll let that pass) to "see page x, post z on y thread", as then they'll be in one place when I'm making the report (though at this rate there won't be much to report). And, I'm happy with the rules, so are a lot of others. If YOU want some changes, you should be willing to move yourself at least AS MUCH as to write me a PM.

2 PMs this far. Come on people, I thought you wanted changes? I don't even know what you want changed (yes Hollywood, I know what you want changed, no need to answer this).


AND I asked your opinions when making the rules. And implementing new rules and then instantly starting to change them, without even trying them out would have been, imo, more stupid than "waiting two months and letting your forum go to shit" (I haven't noticed any changes tbh, except it's a bit quieter with MD gone= a bit better than before).
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 10:46:53 PM by Hypno »

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #230 on: August 02, 2008, 12:55:50 AM
Quote from: Hypno
I prefer properly written PMs (which I still didn't get, from you that is, but I guess I'll let that pass) to "see page x, post z on y thread"
Since you seem to be having a selectively-recurring hand injury, I PMed you the entire contents of this post.  You know, the one I offered to PM you and you said you wanted me to.

Why you were entirely unable to copy&paste it yourself, I don't know.  But I PMed it anyway.

So, do you have any other anal requests for random unnecessary tasks which you expect me to perform before acknowledging you've read a post of mine that you already acknowledged you've read?  Shall I post while jumping through a flaming hoop on a motorcycle next time?

Quote from: Hypno
If YOU want some changes, you should be willing to move yourself at least AS MUCH as to write me a PM.
Oh, come off it, I've already suggested changes to you on about five different threads, all of which have been moved, locked, or adversely affected by your tragic hand injury.

Quote from: Hypno
I don't even know what you want changed
You would if you had bothered to acknowledge what roughly 30 people have been telling you at various times for the past two months.

Quote from: Hypno
AND I asked your opinions when making the rules.
When making the new rules?  When the hell was that?  You mean when you said "I'm making new rules" and a bunch of people said "that won't solve the problem" and/or "we don't want any additional rules"?

Honestly, Hypno.  Stop pretending no one's ever suggested anything, stop putting up petty and arbitrary barriers to communication, and stop making shit up.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Sander

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Reply #231 on: August 02, 2008, 02:27:56 PM
Quote from: Hypno
I prefer properly written PMs (which I still didn't get, from you that is, but I guess I'll let that pass) to "see page x, post z on y thread"
Since you seem to be having a selectively-recurring hand injury, I PMed you the entire contents of this post.  You know, the one I offered to PM you and you said you wanted me to.

Why you were entirely unable to copy&paste it yourself, I don't know.  But I PMed it anyway.
I got you PM but it wasn't properly written (if you'd read my post about the suggestion PMs, you'd know what I mean). And where should I have copypasted it? To a text file that I'll loose in the mess my MyDocuments are? A post-it note on my monitor? A PM to myself?

Oh, come off it, I've already suggested changes to you on about five different threads, all of which have been moved, locked, or adversely affected by your tragic hand injury.
You have a) Suggested that we bring back the old rules (which you didn't remember yourself), and then b) Suggested a completely different set of rules, from the original ones.

When making the new rules?  When the hell was that?  You mean when you said "I'm making new rules" and a bunch of people said "that won't solve the problem" and/or "we don't want any additional rules"?

Honestly, Hypno.  Stop pretending no one's ever suggested anything, stop putting up petty and arbitrary barriers to communication, and stop making shit up.
That's strange, I clearly remember getting a few PMs with suggestions for the new rules, including from you, more than a week before the new rules were implemented. Who's making up shit here?



(On a completely other note- if MD would still be here, he'd start using that 'hand injury' "joke" (if it's meant so) in every post or so)

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Offline Anna

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Reply #232 on: August 02, 2008, 09:36:31 PM
I guess I am going to ignore the dialogue above - not that I did not have my opinion, but both interested parties know it and that's enough for now. I'm too ill at the moment to elaborate on this.

There is, however, one thing I want to say, as it seems that only 2 PMs have been sent so far, one from Hollywood and one from me. However, apart from the two of us, other 38 people voted for a change as well, yet not even one of them has bothered to send the PM so far. I know some of you have already posted suggestions and though I understand your possible unwillingness to send them again via PM, I also think that we can see that no other way will be accepted.

Therefore, I would like to say one thing to those who voted for change but have not (so far) lifted a finger to write and send your own  suggestions:

You do disappoint me, guys.

It's a real shame, seeing so many of you talking big in private but then leaving everything to others. I understand that many of you might not be here now, might not be able to post anything because of various reasons - but don't tell me it's all 38 of you. Are you ashamed of what you voted for? Or do you simply "chill" somehwere and wait for the things to resolve, somehow? If you decide to vote and voice your dissatisfaction, then kindly stand behind of what you say and act accordingly! Otherwise you are just making yourself look foolish - and not only yourself, but also those who actually bothered themselves to do something more than clicking a button! Thank you.

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Offline Sander

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Reply #233 on: August 02, 2008, 09:49:56 PM
Thanks Anna.

I would also like to say, that suggestions are always welcome. But if you have any about the rules, it'd be best if we could get them all at once, it would make it easier for us to deal with them and bigger chances for your voice to be heard.

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Offline SarahAlex

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Reply #234 on: August 02, 2008, 10:36:55 PM
3rd PM sent. Sorry for not sending it earlier but I returned from Italy yesterday.


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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #235 on: August 03, 2008, 12:41:58 AM
Quote from: Hypno
I got you PM but it wasn't properly written (if you'd read my post about the suggestion PMs, you'd know what I mean).
If it was unclear, why not ask me what I meant rather than whining about it ad nauseum?  Since I haven't received a single question about it from you, I'm going to assume that my meaning was perfectly clear and you're simply being juvenile.  If something really WAS unclear, ask me about it.

Quote from: Hypno
And where should I have copypasted it? To a text file that I'll loose in the mess my MyDocuments are? A post-it note on my monitor? A PM to myself?
Oh, please, are you serious?  This is so utterly ridiculous, I'm at a loss for words to describe precisely the depths of inanity that have now been reached.
Obviously, if you are posting the suggestions somewhere for them to be discussed among the staff, you will need to-- brace yourself-- copy&paste them there from people's PMs.  If you were more interested in people's suggestions than in continuing this preschool-level "neener neener, you STILL didn't suggest it right!" bullshitry, I'm sure your selective hand injury would miraculously heal to an extent that would allow you to copy&paste something from a post.

Quote from: Hypno
You have a) Suggested that we bring back the old rules (which you didn't remember yourself), and then b) Suggested a completely different set of rules, from the original ones.
Oh.  If you understand that I suggested a set of rules, then I guess my PM made sense after all. :)
I don't remember the specifics of the old rules, and you said you didn't remember them either, therefore I suggested something along the lines of what I thought I remembered.  Out of curiosity, how do you know that the rules I suggested were "completely different" if you lost the old rules and don't remember what they were?  (Oops.)

Quote from: Hypno
That's strange, I clearly remember getting a few PMs with suggestions for the new rules, including from you, more than a week before the new rules were implemented.
Actually, you're right, I forgot about that.  My apologies.  (Yeah, check it out, I admit when I'm wrong-- novel concept around here, I know.)  I'll point out, however, that the suggestion in my PM to you was to keep the rules as they were.

Just wondering, how many of the current set of rules are based on the suggestions of users other than PN?

Quote from: Anna
Therefore, I would like to say one thing to those who voted for change but have not (so far) lifted a finger to write and send your own  suggestions:

You do disappoint me, guys.
Hmm.  I completely understand your point, but I can't say I'm entirely disappointed myself.  It's become blatantly obvious that no amount of trying to reason with the administration is effective, that the staff (with the exception of a couple now-nearly-inactive mods) has no interest in what users want, and that nothing is going to change-- except maybe for the worse, as administrative attempts to weasel out of accusations become more and more outlandish, and more and more previously-active users get fed up and disappear.

I'm thinking that's 37 pragmatic realists, frankly.  When a forum gets THIS far gone, it becomes harder and harder to care.

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Offline Sander

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Reply #236 on: August 03, 2008, 10:36:09 AM
Oh, please, are you serious?  This is so utterly ridiculous, I'm at a loss for words to describe precisely the depths of inanity that have now been reached.
Obviously, if you are posting the suggestions somewhere for them to be discussed among the staff, you will need to-- brace yourself-- copy&paste them there from people's PMs.  If you were more interested in people's suggestions than in continuing this preschool-level "neener neener, you STILL didn't suggest it right!" bullshitry, I'm sure your selective hand injury would miraculously heal to an extent that would allow you to copy&paste something from a post.
I'm making the report on Monday. It's Sunday now.

Oh.  If you understand that I suggested a set of rules, then I guess my PM made sense after all. :)
I don't remember the specifics of the old rules, and you said you didn't remember them either, therefore I suggested something along the lines of what I thought I remembered.  Out of curiosity, how do you know that the rules I suggested were "completely different" if you lost the old rules and don't remember what they were?  (Oops.)
I found the oldest variation of the old rules from an old database backup AND posted them (here) somewhere. I'm pretty sure you saw them and if I'm not completely mistaken, even commented on them.

Just wondering, how many of the current set of rules are based on the suggestions of users other than PN?
Quite a lot actually. Most of them I suggested. Though, that's because there haven't been that many rules suggestions by other users.

Hmm.  I completely understand your point, but I can't say I'm entirely disappointed myself.  It's become blatantly obvious that no amount of trying to reason with the administration is effective, that the staff (with the exception of a couple now-nearly-inactive mods) has no interest in what users want, and that nothing is going to change-- except maybe for the worse, as administrative attempts to weasel out of accusations become more and more outlandish, and more and more previously-active users get fed up and disappear.

I'm thinking that's 37 pragmatic realists, frankly.  When a forum gets THIS far gone, it becomes harder and harder to care.
Oh yeah we have gone far... Wait. Far where?

Anyway, with your attitude right there, nothing could change. Only whining and whining and when I finally ask, what do you want, you are like 'bwah, nothing is going to change, the staff doesn't care, bwahbwhah". (And yes, I know that you said what you want, I appreciate that)

AND your "more previously-active users get fed up and disappear" is also what I call low. While I'm not saying that some now-inactive users might not be inactive because of the current issue with rules and/or PN, you don't know it either. And saying that they left because of it is just an attempt to make us, the staff look bad. They might have irl issues, they might loose interest in X, there could be a million reasons.

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #237 on: August 03, 2008, 11:17:09 PM
Quote from: Hypno
I'm making the report on Monday. It's Sunday now.
That's why you can't copy&paste?  Huh?  I don't understand.

Quote from: Hypno
I found the oldest variation of the old rules from an old database backup AND posted them (here) somewhere. I'm pretty sure you saw them and if I'm not completely mistaken, even commented on them.
Yeah, I saw them and commented on them.  So?  You still claim not to remember the version of the rules immediately previous to the current one, and then claim that the rules I suggested were so very different.  I don't get why it even matters whether they were different or not.

And since you haven't asked me for clarifications on my PM, I'm going to guess that it was indeed clear.

Quote from: Hypno
Quote from: Hollywood
Just wondering, how many of the current set of rules are based on the suggestions of users other than PN?
Quite a lot actually. Most of them I suggested.
Uh, OK.  That doesn't really help your claim of listening to others.

Quote from: Hypno
Anyway, with your attitude right there, nothing could change. Only whining and whining and when I finally ask, what do you want, you are like 'bwah, nothing is going to change, the staff doesn't care, bwahbwhah". (And yes, I know that you said what you want, I appreciate that)
If you acknowledge and appreciate that I said what I want, then what seems to be the problem?

Quote from: Hypno
AND your "more previously-active users get fed up and disappear" is also what I call low. While I'm not saying that some now-inactive users might not be inactive because of the current issue with rules and/or PN, you don't know it either. And saying that they left because of it is just an attempt to make us, the staff look bad. They might have irl issues, they might loose interest in X, there could be a million reasons.
Right after the rules and the drama following them, the many people who went inactive ALL instantly developed IRL issues and/or lost interest in X?  Somehow I find that hard to believe.

As a point of fact, I DO know why several of them went inactive, because they've told me about it.  And I've heard a lot of "I'm disappointed in the staff members", "reasoning with the admins is useless", "I don't like being there anymore because of how the staff treats people", stuff like that.  I do know of one person who simply got very busy RL.  One.

But that's all my word against yours.  If you really want to find out why people are leaving, I suggest asking them.  And again I would suggest a poll, because as you can see, there are plenty of dissatisfied people who will answer a poll but do not want to send you a PM.

Frankly, I think the results of the rules poll, combined with the lack of suggestion PMs, is in itself a pretty good clue as to how a lot-- according to the poll, the majority-- of users who participated in the poll are feeling right now.

The majority of voters don't like something about the rules and also don't want to talk to you.

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Offline Sander

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Reply #238 on: August 04, 2008, 11:43:06 AM
Quote from: Hypno
I'm making the report on Monday. It's Sunday now.
That's why you can't copy&paste?  Huh?  I don't understand.
Yeah, as I had nowhere to copypaste it. Simple

Yeah, I saw them and commented on them.  So?  You still claim not to remember the version of the rules immediately previous to the current one, and then claim that the rules I suggested were so very different.  I don't get why it even matters whether they were different or not.
The newer older rules were the same, only with some rules added (the translation one, YM Messages one, PMs one, etc).

Uh, OK.  That doesn't really help your claim of listening to others.
Damn man, do you even read stuff that I write? "Though, that's because there haven't been that many rules suggestions by other users."

Right after the rules and the drama following them, the many people who went inactive ALL instantly developed IRL issues and/or lost interest in X?  Somehow I find that hard to believe.

As a point of fact, I DO know why several of them went inactive, because they've told me about it.  And I've heard a lot of "I'm disappointed in the staff members", "reasoning with the admins is useless", "I don't like being there anymore because of how the staff treats people", stuff like that.  I do know of one person who simply got very busy RL.  One.

But that's all my word against yours.  If you really want to find out why people are leaving, I suggest asking them.  And again I would suggest a poll, because as you can see, there are plenty of dissatisfied people who will answer a poll but do not want to send you a PM.

Frankly, I think the results of the rules poll, combined with the lack of suggestion PMs, is in itself a pretty good clue as to how a lot-- according to the poll, the majority-- of users who participated in the poll are feeling right now.

The majority of voters don't like something about the rules and also don't want to talk to you.
Well, for starters, summer came. And I also know people who post less because of what you do here.

And if they vote that they'd like to see rules changed but don't say WHAT they want changed, I really can't help right? I can't really see what they should be afraid of. My anger towards them? HA! I know at least three people who are more or less openly opposing me or showing at least some degree of dissatisfaction, but I still get on with them perfectly fine. I would even dare to call them my friends. There is nothing wrong in stating your opinion.


Also, as there weren't many PMs, I'll let people send more, though I'll make the report now and edit it later.

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #239 on: August 05, 2008, 07:40:56 AM
Quote from: Hypno
Yeah, as I had nowhere to copypaste it. Simple
Oh.  Then since you are miraculously able to copy&paste on Mondays but not on any other day of the week, couldn't you have waited until Miraculous Copy&Paste Ability Monday and then copy&pasted the suggestions from my post?

Really, I'm fascinated.  Could you tell us all more about the convoluted and arcane details of when you are and aren't able to copy&paste short paragraphs?  (Can you copy&paste during blue moons?  How about solar eclipses?)

Quote from: Hypno
The newer older rules were the same, only with some rules added (the translation one, YM Messages one, PMs one, etc).
I know there was nothing there about Yoshiki Mobile.  Otherwise people would not have immediately begun mocking that rule when the new rules were announced.

And if there WAS something about translations and something about PMs, then how were my suggestions so radically different from that?  Didn't I include something about translations and PMs there?  You're arguing in circles now.  Could you remind me again of how any of this supposedly invalidates my suggestions and what exactly your point is?

Quote from: Hypno
Well, for starters, summer came. And I also know people who post less because of what you do here.
Oh.  I thought you said "there could be a million reasons"?  And now you know the reasons specifically?  That's fascinating.

By the way, I know of no one who is "afraid" of you.  Trust me on that one.  A lot of people are simply annoyed that you're being immature and unreasonable and your attempts at argument make little to no logical sense (the whole "I'm unable to copy&paste" claim being a spectacular example of all three).

As I've said: if you are truly interested in why people are leaving, stop blowing smoke and start fact-finding.  Make a poll.  See how it turns out.  Or are you concerned that, like the rules poll, it won't end up in your favor?

Quote from: Hypno
There is nothing wrong in stating your opinion.
Really?  I thought you just claimed that "what I do here" (state my opinions, presumably) is part of the reason your forum is losing users.  Contradicting yourself again, huh?  Oops.

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