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MiscastDice got banned...

SarahAlex · 29807

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Offline SarahAlex

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on: July 03, 2008, 07:05:05 PM
I'd like to ask admins and moderators about banning MiscastDice.

His posts were sometimes provocative, controversial and even offensive, I'm aware of that. But I also consider myself to be his friend, so it's my duty to put some questions instead of him.

1) MiscastDice was told yesterday he would be banned with a next offense but he didn't post anything since that warning came (not a word) and got banned anyway, without any distict reason.

2)
Though this: "You have been banned from this forum. Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information." appeared after he tryied to log in, he is not in the Banned persons list, so he doesn't know if he was banned forever or just for some time.

Could you, please, explain that?

Thank you in advance.


SarahAlex - the devil's advocate


Offline Lucs

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Reply #1 on: July 03, 2008, 07:09:28 PM
Why making a topic here ? You already contacted an administrator by private message (which was the right thing to do), so please, wait for an answer. Thanks.


Offline SarahAlex

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Reply #2 on: July 03, 2008, 07:22:52 PM
Quote from: "Lucs"
Why making a topic here ? You already contacted an administrator by private message (which was the right thing to do), so please, wait for an answer. Thanks.


I'm sorry for my impatience but this is much more about MiscastDice than about me. He still doesn't know what's going on and though you are all busy, he would appreciate at least... yeah, what you've just said, something like "You'll get your answers.".

And because he is still not on the Banned persons list, I thought it would be fair to inform other people why he's not present.


SarahAlex - the devil's advocate


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #3 on: July 03, 2008, 07:27:09 PM
Well, why not make a topic here?  I wasn't aware of any of this until SarahAlex told me, and I'm glad she decided to post.  Administrative "irregularities" like this need to be spoken up about.  If the administration has no "irregularities" to hide, then why insist that everything by handled via PM?  A lack of transparency will always breed suspicion, whether warranted or not.

About MiscastDice's banning, personally I think a lot of his posts WERE offensive, warning-worthy, and ultimately ban-worthy.  I don't have a problem with the fact that he was banned, but I do have a problem with how the ban seems to have been carried out.

If he was told he would be banned upon his next offense, but commited no further offenses-- why was he banned?  Don't get me wrong: I don't mean anything against him personally by this, but to be frank, at the rate he was going I don't think it would have been long until he commited another offense.  But that doesn't make it OK for someone to tell him he has one more chance and then ban him anyway.

And I too was under the impression that all bans are supposed to be listed on the banned persons list.  It's especially unfair to ban someone and then not tell even the banned person themselves how long they're banned for.

I too would like some public answers.  If the admins wanted him banned, all they would have to do is wait until he makes another offensive post, ban him, and post about it (including the length of the ban).  Then I would not personally have any argument with it at all.

So, why was this not done?  Honestly, can we even get through one week around here without admins breaking their own rules?

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Lucs

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Reply #4 on: July 03, 2008, 07:27:56 PM
As you know, most of the staff are leaving for Paris tomorrow (or already did), so please be patient.

You sent a PM to PanthereNoire who lives in Japan, she's probably sleeping now, I guess she'll answer tomorrow morning then (just a guess).

The banned person list will be updated.

But you can "officially" tell MiscastDice that he's banned for one week.

I won't go into details, wait till you get an answer to your PM ! Thanks !


Offline Anna

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Reply #5 on: July 03, 2008, 07:28:17 PM
Quote
A lack of transparency will always breed suspicion, whether warranted or not.


Well said.

Pony rocks!


Offline MillieQOF

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Reply #6 on: July 03, 2008, 07:34:36 PM
MiscastDice has been banned for a week, yes.
I myself thought he had already gone up on the banned persons list, but apparently he hadn't.

Wait for the PM to be written and directed to MiscastDice. ^^;



Offline Hollywood

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Reply #7 on: July 03, 2008, 07:35:26 PM
Quote from: "Lucs"
The banned person list will be updated.

Why was it not updated when he was banned?  Surely anyone who has the time to ban someone also has the time to make a brief post about it.

Quote from: "Lucs"
I won't go into details, wait till you get an answer to your PM ! Thanks !

I would appreciate if you WOULD go into details, Lucs.  Sorry, but here we go again with the lack of transparency and the PM-only thing.

The "nice" thing about PMs is that, due to the rule about not posting PMs, anyone can say anything they want about the reason for someone's ban, etc., via PM... and because it's a PM, bingo, no one is allowed to discuss it publicly.  Very convenient.

Well, here's something I'd also like an answer to: why all this secrecy?  Why does the administration refuse to speak publicly to their users?

And why was MiscastDice's ban kept secret in the first place?  (As I said: I don't go for "she had time to ban him but no time to post about it".)

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Matthias

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Reply #8 on: July 03, 2008, 07:39:27 PM
Quote from: "Hollywood"
And why was MiscastDice's ban kept secret in the first place?  (As I said: I don't go for "she had time to ban him but no time to post about it".)


Perhaps the person who banned him just forget to made a post in the banned-person-thread? Things like that happen, if I have to ban a person at the forum where I'm a mod it sometimes also happens (shouldn't I know) that I just forget to make a public post with the reason, not because I don't want to and I have something to hide, just because it could happen that I'm to sleepy or are distracted by another thing.



Offline Lucs

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Reply #9 on: July 03, 2008, 07:39:28 PM
Quote from: "Hollywood"
Well, why not make a topic here?  I wasn't aware of any of this until SarahAlex told me, and I'm glad she decided to post.  Administrative "irregularities" like this need to be spoken up about.  If the administration has no "irregularities" to hide, then why insist that everything by handled via PM?  A lack of transparency will always breed suspicion, whether warranted or not.


Your post is the answer. I didn't want NOW (just when most of the staff will be gone) to start another discussion like that.
Why not make a topic ? Because she already asked by PM which is enough in my opinion. She can tell anyone of the staff that the banned person list hasn't been updated, someone will do it then.

I think the admin who banned MD just forgot to update the list, no big deal. It will be updated.

Quote

If he was told he would be banned upon his next offense, but commited no further offenses-- why was he banned?  Don't get me wrong: I don't mean anything against him personally by this, but to be frank, at the rate he was going I don't think it would have been long until he commited another offense.  But that doesn't make it OK for someone to tell him he has one more chance and then ban him anyway.


That's not exactly what happened but I really don't want to explain everything right now. Just to sum up, he got a 3rd warning, and then we found another post where he got offensive, so he got banned (as he had been warned).

Quote

And I too was under the impression that all bans are supposed to be listed on the banned persons list.  It's especially unfair to ban someone and then not tell even the banned person themselves how long they're banned for.

This is a mistake from the staff that the list hasn't been updated. We're not perfect, just human. I apologize for that. We will update the list (I can't myself update it, need to wait for PN or ferret).
There's no way for the staff to then tell the banned person that he's banned. He just finds it out when he tries to connect to the forum. This version of the forum doesn't have much options, we can't even write a personal message which would be displayed when the banned person tries to connect (this can be done on SMF forum for example, and I think it's a good thing).

Quote
So, why was this not done?  Honestly, can we even get through one week around here without admins breaking their own rules?


As I said, it's not breaking a rule, it's just that the admin who made the banned forgot to update the list. As you know, banning people is something very new here. Plus, he's banned only for some hours now, so I think that giving 24h or something like that before the list is updated is ok (even though it'd be beter to update it just after the ban).

If something isn't clear or if you have more questions, feel free to ask.


Offline ferret

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Reply #10 on: July 03, 2008, 07:42:00 PM
It wasn't kept "secret", but because to his behaviour there was consideration of banning him for good (which didn't happen, obviously).

MiscastDice is a special case (I'm sure he likes to hear that) and therefore lots of discussion was and still is going on about his ban.

RIP


Offline Lucs

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Reply #11 on: July 03, 2008, 07:42:14 PM
Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote from: "Lucs"
The banned person list will be updated.

Why was it not updated when he was banned?  Surely anyone who has the time to ban someone also has the time to make a brief post about it.

Quote from: "Lucs"
I won't go into details, wait till you get an answer to your PM ! Thanks !

I would appreciate if you WOULD go into details, Lucs.  Sorry, but here we go again with the lack of transparency and the PM-only thing.


Sorry when I replied, your post wasn't displayed, so I thought only SarahAlex would want to have answer, it's why I didn't want to get into details, I hope my other post is clear enough now.

Quote

Well, here's something I'd also like an answer to: why all this secrecy?  Why does the administration refuse to speak publicly to their users?

Well, same reason as above. She asked by PM, I thought it'd be better that she gets the answer by PM. But as it seems to interests more people, we can still talk here publicy. I don't see any problem personnaly.

Quote

And why was MiscastDice's ban kept secret in the first place?  (As I said: I don't go for "she had time to ban him but no time to post about it".)

We did not want to hide it. I hadn't check the banned person list, but I thought it had been updated.


Offline ferret

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Reply #12 on: July 03, 2008, 07:55:31 PM
The banned persons list was updated.

Or has been...brain does not compute English atm, brb.

RIP


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #13 on: July 03, 2008, 08:15:00 PM
Thanks Lucs and ferret for your explanations (and your willingness to discuss things publicly), I really appreciate that.  Makes sense now, and I apologize for first assuming it was intentionally done "in secret".

I think that answers all my questions about this personally, thanks again. :)

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline VioletCamicat

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Reply #14 on: July 03, 2008, 08:17:04 PM
Quote from: "ferret"
MiscastDice is a special case (I'm sure he likes to hear that) and therefore lots of discussion was and still is going on about his ban.

Yah, can only make clear that this is true.

And I think this was just a not very lucky missunderstanding.
You know the 1-2-3 vs. 1-2-3-AND-thing?
For example: I was thinking that the third warning is directly followed by a ban. As it seems, the person who wrote the third warning rather thought the third warning is the last chance.
Just what I would also consider. Maybe we didn't discuss this case well enough before...

I agree, that it has gotten really kind of chaotic and that this is confusing. Considering the last message MD received, he really might have gotten not banned. Well... second ban ever on this board, as far as I know. I'd say something like "We'll improve on that", but somehow I hope we don't have to ban people that often. :shock:

I think we simply didn't discuss the system clear enough. :| That's my impression at least.

mod mode

And out of the chaos I heard a voice telling me:
"Smile and be happy - it could have become worse!"
So I smiled and was happy... and it became worse


Offline Zwanster

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Reply #15 on: July 03, 2008, 08:20:06 PM
Why is MiscastDice a special case?



Offline VioletCamicat

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Reply #16 on: July 03, 2008, 08:24:42 PM
Quote from: "Zwanster"
Why is MiscastDice a special case?

The first who's gotten banned after the new rules are up + (at least I think so) usually a ban isn't so necessary, since warnings really should be enough.
We really tried to be fair and actually he already did stuff here for getting like six or seven warnings.

Really: Banning isn't so common here and it's kind of sad that this is really necessary.

mod mode

And out of the chaos I heard a voice telling me:
"Smile and be happy - it could have become worse!"
So I smiled and was happy... and it became worse


Offline Zwanster

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Reply #17 on: July 03, 2008, 08:33:31 PM
Quote from: "VioletCamicat"
Quote from: "Zwanster"
Why is MiscastDice a special case?

The first who's gotten banned after the new rules are up + (at least I think so) usually a ban isn't so necessary, since warnings really should be enough.
We really tried to be fair and actually he already did stuff here for getting like six or seven warnings.

Really: Banning isn't so common here and it's kind of sad that this is really necessary.


Ah right ok fair enough.



Offline Belle & Sebastian

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Reply #18 on: July 03, 2008, 09:42:14 PM
what exactly did he do? bullying or something?



Offline MillieQOF

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Reply #19 on: July 03, 2008, 10:02:24 PM
Quote from: "le.pilote"
what exactly did he do? bullying or something?

He's done a lot of stuff including performing personal attacks on among others PanthereNoire, using a provoking picture as avatar and basically doing things the opposite way the staff has told him to.



Offline Uncontrol

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Reply #20 on: July 04, 2008, 07:57:13 AM
Kind of funny how there's been two bannings because of the Panthere stuff. Since then, there's been two.

Bannings have gone up 200%. rofl.



Offline MillieQOF

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Reply #21 on: July 04, 2008, 10:54:30 AM
Quote from: "Uncontrol"
Kind of funny how there's been two bannings because of the Panthere stuff. Since then, there's been two.


May I add he has not only been rude to PanthereNoire, but also other members of the staff (VioletCamicat), and I don't really see Panthere's administration as a reason to be rude towards other people.



Offline Hollywood

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Reply #22 on: July 04, 2008, 05:33:15 PM
Quote from: "Uncontrol"
Kind of funny how there's been two bannings because of the Panthere stuff. Since then, there's been two.

Bannings have gone up 200%. rofl.

Three (300%). ;)

And while I do think the bans were justified (the last two much moreso than darkcat's though), the fact is that, yeah, the PN situation and the rules situation have pissed people off to a point where they do ban-worthy stuff.  Which had never happened before all of this.

That doesn't justify or excuse poor behavior on the part of the pissed, but it's still an interesting observation and a clear indication of the general unrest around here nowadays.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Belle & Sebastian

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Reply #23 on: July 04, 2008, 09:28:19 PM
i smell revolt and revolution..



Offline SarahAlex

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Reply #24 on: July 04, 2008, 10:30:07 PM
Quote from: "le.pilote"
i smell revolt and revolution..


“Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit.”
Abbie Hoffman


SarahAlex - the devil's advocate


Offline Matilda in Oz

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Reply #25 on: July 05, 2008, 07:35:15 AM
I find it slightly odd that the post ratio between normal members and board staff is close to 50% (but maybe I'm not very good at counting). Most forums I've visited there are way way more members than staff being active posters. It's almost as though we each have a personal minder.



Offline Hollywood

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Reply #26 on: July 05, 2008, 05:39:35 PM
Quote from: "Matilda in Oz"
I find it slightly odd that the post ratio between normal members and board staff is close to 50% (but maybe I'm not very good at counting). Most forums I've visited there are way way more members than staff being active posters. It's almost as though we each have a personal minder.

Yeah, I agree.  Like I said on that other thread (the one that's now locked :roll:), I've been around, and I've NEVER seen such a high staff-to-user ratio on a forum before.  349 registered users, of whom maybe 25 are active at the most, and something like 15 staff members.  Hypno, PN, ferret, Bizkitroach, Hurley, Lucs, KrazyJess, friday, VioletCamicat, Tordek42, MillieQOF, AsukaMiyu Maverick, Artseeker, Kyubi... have I left anyone out?  Apologies if so, it's hard to count given that there's no list of admins and mods anywhere.

Obviously people can "hire" as many staff as they want, but for such a tiny forum, it's really bizarre and wasteful and borderline creepy in a "Big Brother" way.  For a forum of this size you only need about three active staff, maybe five at the max, so I'm not sure what the point of the other 10 or 12 staff members is.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline MillieQOF

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Reply #27 on: July 05, 2008, 06:08:05 PM
Eh, Hollywood, I think she meant how much people post, since she wrote post ratio.



Offline Matilda in Oz

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Reply #28 on: July 06, 2008, 03:52:36 AM
I meant both, in a roundabout way.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having so many staff and so many staff posting, it's just really unusual, and I think the end result will be that the forum loses out on a lot of really fun and interesting discussions.

Edited to add: On a personal note, I want to add that I used to laugh so much and really really enjoy reading the daily posts when I first joined. Even if naughty and less than polite, the brilliance of some of the comments were priceless! That spirit seems to be gone now, unfortunately. I find that really sad. Anyway, that's my personal opinion, and I guess there's a difference between being "the artist" with the freedom of expression that involves, and to be a commenter on the artists. We have to restrict ourselves, whereas we admire their not restricting themselves.



Offline VioletCamicat

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Reply #29 on: July 07, 2008, 02:17:00 AM
Active admins are:
Hypno, ferret, Panthere Noire

Aktive mods are by now:
AsukaMiyu, Hurley, Lucs, friday, KRazyJess, VioletCamicat, Tordek42, MillieQOF

As you might have seen Bizkitroach isn't really that active here anymore.
And Mods like Maverick, Artseeker, Kyubi and every other who's not mentioned on the list above are mods due to the BXtE project, because they are coordinators there. They have not really moderation activities on the board.

I agree that this sounds much nevertheless though. But all in all I personally do not see a problem, that there are more mods than usual. Since this is a place people hang around on in free time (usually), it's cool to have rather only some parts of the boards to moderate than maybe the half of it. :D

mod mode

And out of the chaos I heard a voice telling me:
"Smile and be happy - it could have become worse!"
So I smiled and was happy... and it became worse