Suggestion: let people talk

[X-J]

As for X-J's post: That one's epic! I think I mostly got it.
There might be some itsy-bitsy parts I might disagree with, though I won't say them here, since... they could be too offending for someone and that's not an intention of mine.

Thanks    I really hope we can focus on what unites us though the approaches differ, yes, and that's a very good thing, it shows how multifaceted X is. All "Westerners" here are torch-bearers since X is still quite marginal in our respective nations, which has its good and bad sides.

Also, I haven't read PN's texts extensively; being human, she possibly also errs in some of her views. But I think we also need "more serious-thinking" figures on the board, one cannot please everyone, etc. What I'm disputing is the elevating oneself as a "definitive" judge since it is not a particularly democratic or discursive path. But, this empathically does not mean uncritically embracing the other extreme, i.e., "thou shalt not write seriously".

While PN is, IMO admirably, a serious student of X (so it seems), it does not give cause to suppressing other visions that may be hold on to every bit as sincerely and logically. Thus, any attempts at homogenising the board ought to IMO be at all costs avoided.

[VioletCamicat]

LULZ: http://www.x-freaks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1773

In case anyone will start to complain that old things get reposted as arguments, I'll become seriously angry about this... It's even from this year, after the reunion.
Really... I think, it's ridiculous. I gotta agree on the double-standard thing at the latest now! I'd seriously appreciate a more objective way of acting from an admin.

Note: I am telling this as a user, not as a mod. This is my own opinion on this and (quite obviously) doesn't represent the whole staff.

[MisterEN]

I'm what I would call myself a moderate amount of time X fan (I started listening to them around 2003-4, and dedicated enough to own their CDs) and have lurked on this for for the past year and a half or so. I registered myself around a month ago to weigh in on what I see a unfair editting of posts but something came up and I never got around to it, that being said I'll weigh in now. I know this has been debated and rehashed to death so I'll try and keep it clean and simple.

To me, Panther Noire is the kind of person who views and holds her opinions as and theories on X's history as fact. Whether it be MAYASA and Toshi, Translation of Japanese text or the writing of Without You, she automatically claims her view to be pure unfiltered fact and immediately attacks and bullies anybody who may have a different opinion and is trying to open a discussion on the topic.

Anyone who wants to show a different view on an issue that Panther Noire differs on is most often immediately met with a complete denial and a threat of moderation should they continue any further. There is a clear conflict of interest here which is Panther Noire's views against the ability to gather and take information (regardless of the biased) on any particular topic.

And yet when anybody asks her to elaborate on any issue or situation, she'll stall or withhold posting it, isn't the point of such a community like a forum to share information so we can all learn a little bit more about the band we all love? If Panther Noire wishes to continue posting information only she believes is correct while continuing to threaten those with differing opinions then I would suggest she gets a blog.


The other issue is the loss of the ability to post any information without it being packaged with expressed written consent from Yoshiki, in particular I'd like to cite the announcement of a Taiwan concert, which had a topic but was then closed by Panther Noire due to the fact that there was no "official source". This was despite the fact that Yoshiki himself announced the concert at the Hide Memorial Concert. Can we please stop this silliness? If a team wins a baseball game a sports news station don't wait until the MLB's website specifically states the outcome of a game to state which team wins.

Overall I would like to recommend one of two things occurs here

Either:

A) Panther Noire steps down or is removed as moderator due to a conflict of interest and we further clarify the rules so as no further abuse of the system occurs from either Moderators or Posters

B)The forum redefines the role of Moderator as a neutral party, bring in more moderators and install a two tiered moderator system in which a separate group of moderators exist only for the sole purpose of ensuring there is abuse of power.

In the ideal world I would prefer (B) as it would bring more ranged views to the job of moderation and hold accountability, but given the size of the community I would probably lean towards (A). I would also suggest another moderator be brought in to help with moderation since topics seem to grow at a tremendious rate in this forum.

[Hollywood]

Such excellent points (and posts) have been made here lately.  Just wanted to post and say that I updated the list on page 6. (I'll update that whenever someone-- on either "side"-- posts on this thread for the first time.  Of course, if I'm misinterpreted something and put someone in the wrong place, please let me know and I'll fix it.)

In essence they are, but that's not the point. It is written in the Terms of Agreement of Yoshiki Mobile, that you are not allowed to pass on the info you get from there, it's meant for people who pay for it to get info earlier than others, that's what they pay for.

And it's not in the rules? GODDAMN, say again we don't need to clear up the rules. We have had this issue at least two times already...

And it's written on my Blue Blood CD that "Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable laws".  Yet there are unauthorized mp3s exchanged in the sharing forums (don't know if Blue Blood is there or not, just using an example).  I'm not condemning anyone for that, and I'm not advocating for more rules.  I don't want any more rules.  In fact I want fewer rules, because I would like for ONLY the X Freaks rules which are actually written down in the X Freaks rules post to be enforced.  I'm asking for an end to double-standards and an end to the capricious invention and enforcement of "invisible rules".

It's really unfortunate, because I believe you guys (mods and admins) when you say you want to find a solution.  But now, while you guys are trying to figure out what to do, PN is once more running rampant with her usual behavior.  Even now, nothing has changed.

Hypno, could I request that the rest of my questions be answered too?  The ones in the post of mine that you replied to?  I'd really appreciate that.  I'd also really appreciate the latest double-standard admin action by PN to be addressed-- re: the thread Radical Pan found and VioletCamicat commented on, where PN herself divulges "secret" Yoshiki Mobile information.  Thanks in advance.

[Belle & Sebastian]

So, I suggest:

either Panthere Noir is right or not, just remove her from her post, since it causes too much trouble. It's for the greater good, since she is the source of endless talk about nothing.

[Zwanster]

I really doubt Yoshiki has the time to read any of these forums right now do you? Even if he did I can't see him being offended about something like that, maybe if someone said his drum solo sucked, but still, that'd still be just an opinion...

[MiscastDice]

I really doubt Yoshiki has the time to read any of these forums right now do you? Even if he did I can't see him being offended about something like that, maybe if someone said his drum solo sucked, but still, that'd still be just an opinion...

This. If anything, I think he would have taken Hollywood's comment as a compliment. Hell, even the Violet UK myspace's description hints that he still likes to explore those themes.

[Ryo-Ohki]

I kinda am.. intrigued by this thread.

I'm on the fence on this, and.. if a mod would like to contact me outside of the forum, I'll be more than happy to explain.  Just PM me here..

My reason being is this:  I feel that mods should be those who are unbiased on all facets of people's opinion.  They should NOT have the right to tell people their feelings/thoughts/opinions are wrong and therefore are.. negatively spoken to.  I may know one thing as honest truth, someone else may know something else that is truth.. or simply wanting to debunk a rumor.  PN comes along and says that that is totally _________ (fill in the blank)

PN Is not the only person on this planet that knows anything about X/Yoshiki, and I really honestly feel that if he did find issue with this board, it would be in her own comments, her own insistance of the YoshikiXToshi issue (that is really not an issue at all), and her biased and negative perspective on hide.

I agree with everyone here, and we all have a right to our own individual opinion.  iCat.. Hollywood.. and others.. Please know.. I'm not here to start trouble or anything.  Just a fan who's tired of seeing the same old crud trotted out as honest to holy truth from PN.

[radicalblues]

It is written in the Terms of Agreement of Yoshiki Mobile, that you are not allowed to pass on the info you get from there.

And it's written on my Blue Blood CD that "Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable laws".  Yet there are unauthorized mp3s exchanged in the sharing forums

This.

Double-moral in this forum is getting ridiculous, and I'm betting a ban that the Yoshiki Mobile TOS speech is PanthereNoire speaking, not Hypno.

You know why you have a mp3 sharing section here, private or not. It's because without piracy, without fan translations, without fan blogs, without one thousand things, X would be nothing overseas, not even heard of.

It's absolutely ridiculous to start enforcing rules like "Oh you can't say this, you can't post that..." when the X community is in essence that. JRR is doing a very good work, and as a official source it follows certain canons.

But the X community is nothing like that, was never like that. Yoshiki Hayashi is aware of X-Freaks or sites like mine, even added smiles towards that. He himself said he's grateful for having fans overseas, and he knows he has them thanks to sites like this that promote mp3. If you didn't agree with this, there wouldn't be a trading section.

You know these rules are ridiculous Hypno, as a fellow webmaster, your site has an awesome community, don't let it down for stupid crap.

[Ryo-Ohki]

It is written in the Terms of Agreement of Yoshiki Mobile, that you are not allowed to pass on the info you get from there.

And it's written on my Blue Blood CD that "Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable laws".  Yet there are unauthorized mp3s exchanged in the sharing forums

This.

Double-moral in this forum is getting ridiculous, and I'm betting a ban that the Yoshiki Mobile TOS speech is PanthereNoire speaking, not Hypno.

You know why you have a mp3 sharing section here, private or not. It's because without piracy, without fan translations, without fan blogs, without one thousand things, X would be nothing overseas, not even heard of.

It's absolutely ridiculous to start enforcing rules like "Oh you can't say this, you can't post that..." when the X community is in essence that. JRR is doing a very good work, and as a official source it follows certain canons.

But the X community is nothing like that, was never like that. Yoshiki Hayashi is aware of X-Freaks or sites like mine, even added smiles towards that. He himself said he's grateful for having fans overseas, and he knows he has them thanks to sites like this that promote mp3. If you didn't agree with this, there wouldn't be a trading section.

You know these rules are ridiculous Hypno, as a fellow webmaster, your site has an awesome community, don't let it down for stupid crap.

From what I understand, I doubt there is such rule.  It would be ... I don't know.. pointless

[jigokugal]

LULZ: http://www.x-freaks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1773

In case anyone will start to complain that old things get reposted as arguments, I'll become seriously angry about this... It's even from this year, after the reunion.
Really... I think, it's ridiculous. I gotta agree on the double-standard thing at the latest now! I'd seriously appreciate a more objective way of acting from an admin.

Note: I am telling this as a user, not as a mod. This is my own opinion on this and (quite obviously) doesn't represent the whole staff.

And guess ... the thread was deleted. A very slow action to delete, it seems, if it's about following the 'rules', or deletion to cover proof?

The topic or post you requested does not exist

In essence they are, but that's not the point. It is written in the Terms of Agreement of Yoshiki Mobile, that you are not allowed to pass on the info you get from there, it's meant for people who pay for it to get info earlier than others, that's what they pay for.

And it's not in the rules? GODDAMN, say again we don't need to clear up the rules. We have had this issue at least two times already...

And it's written on my Blue Blood CD that "Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable laws".  Yet there are unauthorized mp3s exchanged in the sharing forums (don't know if Blue Blood is there or not, just using an example).  I'm not condemning anyone for that, and I'm not advocating for more rules.  I don't want any more rules.  In fact I want fewer rules, because I would like for ONLY the X Freaks rules which are actually written down in the X Freaks rules post to be enforced.  I'm asking for an end to double-standards and an end to the capricious invention and enforcement of "invisible rules".

Very good point Hollywood. Indeed double standard happens here. Apparently the rules aren't rules anymore, but rules that bend slightly to fit the 'admin/mods/somebody elses' needs.
And to add another point, Yoshiki Mobile only happens in Japan due to the network system, which means ppl who are outside it, won't ever have the chance to get some updated messages from Yoshiki which intended to all fans not only fans who live in Japan, if the rules of Yoshiki Mobile can't be shared, implemented here.
I would LOVE to subscribe should the service available internationally.

Suggestion: To be fair, posts of Yoshiki Mobile are allowed in shared sub forum, just as we share the downloaded mp3 or videos of other copyrighted X Japan's work.
No? then... double standards happen again.. lulz.

[Ryo-Ohki]

LULZ: http://www.x-freaks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1773

In case anyone will start to complain that old things get reposted as arguments, I'll become seriously angry about this... It's even from this year, after the reunion.
Really... I think, it's ridiculous. I gotta agree on the double-standard thing at the latest now! I'd seriously appreciate a more objective way of acting from an admin.

Note: I am telling this as a user, not as a mod. This is my own opinion on this and (quite obviously) doesn't represent the whole staff.

And guess ... the thread was deleted. A very slow action to delete, it seems, if it's about following the 'rules', or deletion to cover proof?

The topic or post you requested does not exist

In essence they are, but that's not the point. It is written in the Terms of Agreement of Yoshiki Mobile, that you are not allowed to pass on the info you get from there, it's meant for people who pay for it to get info earlier than others, that's what they pay for.

And it's not in the rules? GODDAMN, say again we don't need to clear up the rules. We have had this issue at least two times already...

And it's written on my Blue Blood CD that "Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable laws".  Yet there are unauthorized mp3s exchanged in the sharing forums (don't know if Blue Blood is there or not, just using an example).  I'm not condemning anyone for that, and I'm not advocating for more rules.  I don't want any more rules.  In fact I want fewer rules, because I would like for ONLY the X Freaks rules which are actually written down in the X Freaks rules post to be enforced.  I'm asking for an end to double-standards and an end to the capricious invention and enforcement of "invisible rules".

Very good point Hollywood. Indeed double standard happens here. Apparently the rules aren't rules anymore, but rules that bend slightly to fit the 'admin/mods/somebody elses' needs.
And to add another point, Yoshiki Mobile only happens in Japan due to the network system, which means ppl who are outside it, won't ever have the chance to get some updated messages from Yoshiki which intended to all fans not only fans who live in Japan, if the rules of Yoshiki Mobile can't be shared, implemented here.
I would LOVE to subscribe should the service available internationally.

Suggestion: To be fair, posts of Yoshiki Mobile are allowed in shared sub forum, just as we share the downloaded mp3 or videos of other copyrighted X Japan's work.
No? then... double standards happen again.. lulz.

I have herd that Yoshiki doesn't mind the sharing.. I guess he realizes that not a lot of us can readily afford the cds and stuff as imports

[SarahAlex]

If Yoshiki would want to hear how great, good-looking and perfect he is, I guess he would just ask one someone around him - because a lot of people, when they are talking to some celebrity, become bootlickers.

So, in the case that he sometimes reads fan boards, doesn't it mean he wants to know the truth? What do the fans really think about him, about X? They need some reliable feedback - so the fact that we "dare" to criticize him/them a little from time to time is purely positive. And important I think.

[Ryo-Ohki]

If Yoshiki would want to hear how great, good-looking and perfect he is, I guess he would just ask one someone around him - because a lot of people, when they are talking to some celebrity, become bootlickers.

So, in the case that he sometimes reads fan boards, doesn't it mean he wants to know the truth? What do the fans really think about him, about X? They need some reliable feedback - so the fact that we "dare" to criticize him/them a little from time to time is purely positive. And important I think.

He knows about the forum.. and it's still here... right...

I think if he knew of some of the... deeper, darker threads.. he might say something..

Per say- hide's death.. That is still a very raw subject to him...

[Uncontrol]

I was waiting for someone to bring up the dolls. :lol:

Anyways..

It seems this situation gets more and more ridiculous each day. I remember there being plenty of Yoshiki Mobile updates through out the website that have gone unmoderated. Panthere just keeps adding more and more rules and moderates who ever and how ever she pleases. She is regarded as some sort of X scholar, yet she says lots of things that don't add up. And after seeing someone say something like "Panthere doesn't need proof. She lives in Japan", I imagine that's how a lot of people ignorantly think. Just because someone lives in Japan doesn't mean they have some sort of spiritual bond with X Japan. I mean, I live in America, but that doesn't mean that I go have breakfast at Denny's with Kiss every Sunday. She is always first to mention how she was somewhere "at an official capacity", I mean how pretentious can you get?

I mean, look here - http://www.x-freaks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2372

Check out the exchange between Panthere and Ryo. My understanding is that Ryo didn't take Panthere's word as some sort of word from God like some people here do. And he is told to be very careful as to what he says? Panthere, as much as she probably hates hearing this, is not an official source of anything.

[Lucs]

I think you guys should really consider building your own forum !

Seriously, if you don't like it here, make a new one with your own rules ! If you search any band on the web, you'll find lots of forum about them (at least more than 1 ), why ? Because each forum is different. There're different people, differents rules etc...

In my opinion, there's no way PN should be removed as an administrator. On a forum, it's not the members choice (in my opinion, but as I said before, I, myself, am administrator of a forum 10 times bigger than this one, so I know what I'm talking about).

Seeing the last posts, I really think it'd be the best thing to do.

We can still all get along even if we're not on the same forum. We can still talk to each other and all, we can be registered on both forum etc...

[Uncontrol]

Why don't I leave? Because I like this website. I don't have a problem with any of the other members or staff. Just Panthere Noire.

Almost every time I see something stupid happen here, Panthere is behind it. Almost every attack on a user, almost every bullshit moderation..it's always her. So I sat here and I thought "Why?" Why is it always Panthere? I came to these conclusions:

A. Panthere is making up these rules as she goes along, which is why she's the only one making these moderation.
B. These rules exist, but the other admin/moderators :roll:, so Panthere picks up their slack.

But hey, these rules actually DO exist somewhere and Panthere is constantly refreshing XF, looking for posts to moderate and wrongs to write. At least she's dedicated  :wink:

And I do disagree about it "not being the members choice", admins are people too, they can fuck up. Sometimes people are too close to the situation to see what's actually going on and that's where the members should step in. So yeah, I do disagree with your "an admin shouldn't be de-admin because they're an admin" statement.


So yeah, Panthere and her actions are my only problem here, why should I leave because of one person?

And one more thing, Lucs. You're an admin for a GNR forum that's 10x the size of this one and even though I know you opinion on this situation, I have to ask: If this exact situation happened on your forums, this large of an outcry against one of your admin/moderators, on what is a normally peaceful message board...what would you think? Would you find a nice way to tell your members to fuck off? Would you re-write the rules to suit the tastes of your rogue staff member? what would you do?

[Skooter]

Okay, so I haven't posted here yet, and I also wasn't really planning to (since I'm bad at arguments anyway).
Personally, I don't get why all this is such a huge issue.

But my feeling is that there is at the moment way too much ambiguity between what is a rule and what isn't. So I think that should be addressed first. Give Hypno a chance to clear up the rules and make sure everybody understands what is a rule and what isn't.

And if after a while you still have issues with PN's moderation powers, bring it up again.
This might seem stupid because it requires leaving the case for a while and everything, but it's not like arguing your way through all these pages has helped any so far.
*back to hide in her argument-free corner*

[VioletCamicat]

And guess ... the thread was deleted. A very slow action to delete, it seems, if it's about following the 'rules', or deletion to cover proof?

The topic or post you requested does not exist

Yeah... I know that it's deleted. I can only say that I wasn't the one who deleted it. I won't tell the reason, since I disagree with it anyway and it's not my business to state for the deletion - that's up to the one who deleted. And to me it isn't really clear, if it's about law or covering.

@ Lucs: I see your point, that people should leave, in case they don't like it here. But many people seem to have their problems since PN became an admin and I understand that people get to those conclusions, when the majority of troubles is connected with her.
Also I think that it's maybe not only WHAT she's doing, but rather HOW she's doing things. When I'm telling people like Babak (just for example ) he rather should watch what he's saying... I should be fair and also tell that PN, since I think the way she speaks isn't okay as well - but I know that it would only cause trouble.
And I know that people like for example Babak would maybe think a little bit about what I'm saying and maybe respect my intention. People here are ranting now and then, shit happens. But I see that PN is doing the same IMO, but only on another level. The way she speaks to users is usually pretty harsh and I can understand that people feel disrespected instantly. And I don't think she'd respect it, when I'd tell her that she should watch her language a little bit. I might be wrong, but my guess is that she'd either ignore it or she'd tell me something like she won't change it with putting her statements into cotton wool. I might be wrong with that assumption, but this is my impression how it is.
Poeple have no problem to be wrong now and then here. People have problems with that ONE person is supposedly NEVER wrong. And really, I can understand that this behaviour doesn't leave a very social impression. This isn't what a community is about in my opinion (and as it seems not only in mine).

Note: This post is just containing my personal point of view as a user. It not meant to represent the board staff, but just my own thoughts and feelings. Feel free to agree or disagree and feel free to prove me wrong or what ever... blah.

[Lucs]

Why don't I leave? Because I like this website. I don't have a problem with any of the other members or staff. Just Panthere Noire.

First of all, I just wanna say I didn't ask ANYBODY to leave. I was just saying maybe it'd be a good idea to make another forum, we can still be on both.

And one more thing, Lucs. You're an admin for a GNR forum that's 10x the size of this one and even though I know you opinion on this situation, I have to ask: If this exact situation happened on your forums, this large of an outcry against one of your admin/moderators, on what is a normally peaceful message board...what would you think? Would you find a nice way to tell your members to fuck off? Would you re-write the rules to suit the tastes of your rogue staff member? what would you do?

Well, almost the same situation happened. Lots of people were complaining about an admin who censored too much. So here's what we did :

First, we talked with the people complaining. They showed us some topics which they thought were "bad administrated" by this admin.

Then, we talked with the staff (admin+mod), we "adapted" our rules trying to make them so most of the people would be happy. Some stuffs which had been censored wouldn't be anymore, and some other would still be.

We presented the new rules and talked about them with the people complaining. After some minor changed, we decided it would be the new rules.

As our team (admin+mod) is pretty big (or maybe like here, I'd say 15-20 people), we ask the admin who was accused of too much censoring to make a new topic in our private moderator section about any topic she would like to censor anything before making the action. By doing that, first, we could see if she was really censoring too much, secondly, we could ask anybody else to make the censorship. When somebody else did it, the people complained less.

After like one or two month, the admin starting "working" like before applying to the new rules and now everything works fine.

It's why at first I said people complaining should first try to point out what's going wrong. I think now (even a week ago), you all made your point. We should just wait for the new rules now and see if we agree all with them and, if needed, adapting them again.

I think we should give some times to this forum's staff so they can try to "repair" what's going wrong without having to remove an admin.

[Sander]

And it's written on my Blue Blood CD that "Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable laws".  Yet there are unauthorized mp3s exchanged in the sharing forums (don't know if Blue Blood is there or not, just using an example).

You answered yourself. If you don't know about it, then don't say it. Straight from the rules of the Sharing Forum, the first two lines (at least check those rules if you post about it):

Welcome to the downloads subforum. This is a place created for all X Japan fans to share their rare X stuff. Yup, RARE. Things that are on sale in well-reachable places like amazon.com, for example the Blue Blood and Jealousy re-releases (and originals), The Last Live DVD rips and so on are not allowed here.

I'm sorry I don't have the time to read and answer all the other posts, I'm at lunch now and really should have been back to work 2 minutes ago -.-

[Uncontrol]

It doesn't matter what album it's from. Sharing copyrighted material is sharing copyrighted material. Whether it's sharing the Dahlia album or a bootleg from the Dahlia tour.

Both are still copyrighted.

[Lucs]

@ Lucs: I see your point, that people should leave, in case they don't like it here. But many people seem to have their problems since PN became an admin and I understand that people get to those conclusions, when the majority of troubles is connected with her.

As I said before, I'm not saying that people should leave if they don't like it here. Of course is they REALLY don't like it here there's no reason to stay, but if they just don't like a few things, it's better to try to fix these things.

[VioletCamicat]

As I said before, I'm not saying that people should leave if they don't like it here. Of course is they REALLY don't like it here there's no reason to stay, but if they just don't like a few things, it's better to try to fix these things.

Yepp, I agree with that.
Leaving should always be the last possibility to consider. And the same goes naturally for leaving just a position on a board.
What I wanna say with that: I think deadminning should also be the last possibility to consider in this case. I'd rather see that we try to work together first. Till now I don't see this really - on both parties, to be fair.

Note: Again just my opinion as user.

[AsukaMiyu]

....
Well because of the points Lucs and Cami just mentioned, we're working on new rules. I think Sander said it before but we'll have rules for both normal user and mods/admins!
So if you'll be relieved by that, Panthere will also have to stay by the rules and accept them, just like any other user.

Please calm down and wait for new rules please.

[Hurley]

It doesn't matter what album it's from. Sharing copyrighted material is sharing copyrighted material. Whether it's sharing the Dahlia album or a bootleg from the Dahlia tour.

Both are still copyrighted.

Bootlegs aren't actually illegal ;P If a concert recording is officially released, then it's illegal.

But I really have nothing to say, I've stated my opinion of the state of our board.

[Kyubi]

hahaha Bootleg aren't illegal, hahahaha.

Sorry that's too much.

I'm sorry it's exactly the same thing if you record a movie from your tv screen and then share it on the internet, illegal, yes ladies and gentlemen, illegal.

[Lucs]

It's illegal but most of the time "tolerated".

[Kyubi]

It's illegal but most of the time "tolerated".

Funnier.

Come on, if it's """""""tolerated""""""" it's just because there is no possible way to stop this. If bootleg were tolerated, why are the cameras and video cameras forbidden during lives?

[Matthias]

If bootleg were tolerated, why are the cameras and video cameras forbidden during lives?

Well that depends on the artist then, doesn't it? For example, during Alter Bridges Concerts you can make as many pictures as you would like to and can also record their performance.