Without You - X Japan Version

[ferret]

And as if there's an unwritten law anywhere which says it's forbidden to have own thoughts about that case.

There isn't, but you see, people get frustrated when there are facts and people of the opposite opinion just brush them off as non valid "there is no proof he wrote it for hide" yeah, and there's no proof he wrote it for Toshi, except Yoshiki's statements which imply that it was written for the first.

And I'm flattered you quoted me.

[Maverick]

And as if there's an unwritten law anywhere which says it's forbidden to have own thoughts about that case.

There isn't, but you see, people get frustrated when there are facts and people of the opposite opinion just brush them off as non valid "there is no proof he wrote it for hide" yeah, and there's no proof he wrote it for Toshi, except Yoshiki's statements which imply that it was written for the first.

I also can see that I get frustrated to read the forthgoing bitching about that case. Honestly, (and I know there will be people who I'll frustrate with that) I STILL don't agree with it. I know what was written in several mags, and said on several occassions. (so there's no reason to point at it now again, I'm not blind) But I personally still have reasons to think another version also may be right - just for the record - i don't say it IS the truth, but your version won't fit with the picture how I see the situation.

And I'm flattered you quoted me.

Well, you appealed me to do so

[Maya]

Well, I just can't figure then what the 'deeper meaning' should be in this case - so that it has NOTHING to do anymore with being born (to me that word simply can be the same place, the same time, the same situation, the same interests, whatever... but it still keeps it's original meaning)

Ok, you got me a bit wrong here XD; Of course it Is about birth ... I was just wondering about the people's conclusion that "the same time" has the meaning of "were born in the same year.". That's what I was talking about xD; Of course born is born. xD; ok?

And what Hollywood meant with the militant "it was for toshi!"-people ... i guess it was about the ones who said phrases like "NO, you're wrong, It IS for Toshi!!!!" ... to present your opinion as a fact can be annoying for others. NOT that you have an own opinion, just the way you express it. (you = man (german). xD)
Right Hollywood? XD;

Maya
Peace.
XD

[Anna]

I also can see that I get frustrated to read the forthgoing bitching about that case.

I don't think anybody's bitching - the debate has been rather civil this time. Though I understand that different opinion may sound unpleasant sometimes.

And as Maya and Hollywood said, the militant ones who openly show total disrespect for other people's opinions aren't really those who are pro-hide (if I may call it like that ).

[Hollywood]

And as if there's an unwritten law anywhere which says it's forbidden to have own thoughts about that case. such as people who don't agree 100% are morons, idiots, blind, or fundamentalistic religious

I don't know where you got the impression that I said you're forbidden from having your own thoughts.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  This is what I said in the post directly above yours (applicable parts highlighted):

I think it's extremely obvious that all evidence points to it being about hide, though ultimately I don't really care, and people are welcome to think what they want-- as you said, only Yoshiki really knows. That said, I think Yoshiki's made his thoughts on it very clear. He said (multiples times) that it was for hide. But if someone doesn't want to believe Yoshiki's own words-- well, whatever. That's their business, I suppose.

i guess it was about the ones who said phrases like "NO, you're wrong, It IS for Toshi!!!!" ... to present your opinion as a fact can be annoying for others. NOT that you have an own opinion, just the way you express it. (you = man (german). xD)
Right Hollywood? XD;

Exactly so.
Though as ferret said, it does become quite frustrating when solid proof from Yoshiki himself continues to be presented and then dismissed by the "it was for Toshi" people for (seemingly) no fact-based reason.  If there are some facts that back up the Toshi argument, I'd be very interested in seeing them.  And I don't mean that as a challenge, by the way-- honestly, if there's some kind of evidence of it being for Toshi, I'd like to have a chance to see that too.

Well, as I've said: everyone is welcome to their opinion.  But for me personally, when Yoshiki himself says "I wrote this for hide"... I see no reason why I should believe otherwise.

[Maverick]

I also can see that I get frustrated to read the forthgoing bitching about that case.

I don't think anybody's bitching - the debate has been rather civil this time. Though I understand that different opinion may sound unpleasant sometimes.

And as Maya and Hollywood said, the militant ones who openly show total disrespect for other people's opinions aren't really those who are pro-hide (if I may call it like that ).

Well, there are people around who go on making fun of this and sorry, that's nothing I'd call 'respectful'.
I'd suggest to let it rest, because going forth with that would cause much more discrepancy than already exist. And I won't write nice comments anymore personally IF I'd feel attacked with a comment of someone. There's a nice saying in German: The way it sounds into the wood, it'll come back. (which means kinda: Don't expect any nice/respectful reaction when you don't treat others respectful)

[Anna]

Don't expect any nice/respectful reaction when you don't treat others respectful.

Yeah, but EXACTLY!

[Maverick]

I also can see that I get frustrated to read the forthgoing bitching about that case.

I don't think anybody's bitching - the debate has been rather civil this time. Though I understand that different opinion may sound unpleasant sometimes.

And as Maya and Hollywood said, the militant ones who openly show total disrespect for other people's opinions aren't really those who are pro-hide (if I may call it like that ).

Well, there are people around who go on making fun of this and sorry, that's nothing I'd call 'respectful'.
I'd suggest to let it rest, because going forth with that would cause much more discrepancy than already exist. And I won't write nice comments anymore personally IF I'd feel attacked with a comment of someone. There's a nice saying in German: The way it sounds into the wood, it'll come back. (which means kinda: Don't expect any nice/respectful reaction when you don't treat others respectful)

Exactly so. Smile
Though as ferret said, it does become quite frustrating when solid proof from Yoshiki himself continues to be presented and then dismissed by the "it was for Toshi" people for (seemingly) no fact-based reason. If there are some facts that back up the Toshi argument, I'd be very interested in seeing them. And I don't mean that as a challenge, by the way-- honestly, if there's some kind of evidence of it being for Toshi, I'd like to have a chance to see that too.

Well, as I've said: everyone is welcome to their opinion. But for me personally, when Yoshiki himself says "I wrote this for hide"... I see no reason why I should believe otherwise.

That's the point. Naturally, there ARE reasons why I.E. I personally think there can be another interpretation. Tho, sorry, I won't reveal this point in public since there are some thoughts in it I don't want to share publicly, which would naturally make a further discussion useless. That I do understand and that also makes me a bit helpless to state my point of view publicly.

[Zwanster]

Well, I'm going to take it that its for hide and enjoy it as such


because it obviously is lol

[jigokugal]

@blues, thanks for the info. =)



I would say that the song was written for hide but it's ambiguous: it had messages for Toshi, that's becoming some reasons of the different version between EMII which was printed in the booklet in year 2005 (before reunion) and live version 2008 (after reunion -- both band and friendship reunions). It's not that surprising if it was made that way, for example, another case I.V. as the song title holds more than 2 meanings.

-------
EDIT:

About the omitted lines from Tokyo Domes: it could be many things, maybe just for live version, maybe Yoshiki did felt they didn't fit. But...

Nah, I don't think so. He wrote the song since.. hmm 1998 and at 2005 it's formally published as well as with the lyrics (EMII). If he just simply felt it didn't suit the song, it wouldn't need 7 years or more to realize that.
There must be some reasons, a deeper reason for that.
If the demo song was sung before 2007 (before Dec 2006) and the lyrics was the full one, that makes the question even bigger, however if the demo one was already cut before then (before he got acquainted with Toshi again to be precised), then I would think differently.
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And...

That's the point. Naturally, there ARE reasons why I.E. I personally think there can be another interpretation. Tho, sorry, I won't reveal this point in public since there are some thoughts in it I don't want to share publicly, which would naturally make a further discussion useless. That I do understand and that also makes me a bit helpless to state my point of view publicly.

And just like Mav said, some other reasons from my own interpretation that I won't talk further here, as the discussion already becomes 'warmer' and going endless.

I'd suggest to let it rest, because going forth with that would cause much more disrespect than already exist.

Agree.

[Hollywood]

That's the point. Naturally, there ARE reasons why I.E. I personally think there can be another interpretation. Tho, sorry, I won't reveal this point in public since there are some thoughts in it I don't want to share publicly, which would naturally make a further discussion useless. That I do understand and that also makes me a bit helpless to state my point of view publicly.

If there's stuff you don't want to talk about in public, that's fine of course, but why then publicly insist upon your point-- and tell others they're wrong for disagreeing with you-- if you don't want to publicly explain it?

Well, I guess that answers the question as to whether there are any facts to back up the "it was for Toshi" side of the debate...  I can't imagine a magazine interview or some other similar fact being too personal to mention publicly.

[Maverick]

If there's stuff you don't want to talk about in public, that's fine of course, but why then publicly insist upon your point-- and tell others they're wrong for disagreeing with you-- if you don't want to publicly explain it?

Because it would be a lie to say that I totally agree with you point, and I'm probably a bit, or better to say very, emotional regarding to that topic. I just wanted to clarify that there still ARE other opinions. And the reason why I reacted was because it's just hard for me to shut up when I see that there's made fun about this. (because there are reasons why to think that way still)
And for the record - I DIDN'T say in any sentence that you are wrong - just to make that clear because I can't guarantee that my thoughts are right either.

Well, I guess that answers the question as to whether there are any facts to back up the "it was for Toshi" side of the debate...  I can't imagine a magazine interview or some other similar fact being too personal to mention publicly.

Yupp... there's the dilemma -.-

[Anna]

And the reason why I reacted was because it's just hard for me to shut up when I see that there's made fun about this. (because there are reasons why to think that way still)

Maverick, I completely understand your unpleasant feelings.
However, I think you can rest assured - I don't think people here are making fun of the fact that you or anybody else think different and present different opinions.
Perhaps it it just my opinion, but what are people actually making fun of is the way these opinions were presented in the past (especially concerning the deleted thread). Whether it should be laid to rest or not - that's a different question and I myself think there's not much to say anymore, really. But I cannot blame people who still remember - and make fun of - the past, as it truly was... epic.

[Sander]

OK so, it was written for BOTH hide and Toshi!

Case closed?

[BizKiTRoAcH]

Everyone knows my thoughts on this subject so I dont see the point in trying to argue my point.. but if anyone wants "proof" that Yoshiki wrote it for hide, send me a PM. Obviously I cant talk about it in public but I'd say after looking at this evidence.. its hard to argue that it wasnt written for hide without insulting Yoshiki in the process.