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Without You - X Japan Version

Lucs · 14238

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Offline Anna

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Reply #30 on: April 26, 2008, 04:00:55 PM
Quote
Nvm, i just found the link here. It's at Yoshiki and Toshi discussion.
http://www.x-freaks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25


That's not even it. The real thread about Without You from this August was deleted. However, as the evidence at that time (as Babak stated) was quite undisputable, I see no point discussing it anymore.   :)

Pony rocks!


Offline Anna

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Reply #31 on: April 26, 2008, 04:21:27 PM
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What the, somebody deleted my post? Confused

Why? I answered the question about who it was for, didn't I? Confused


Weird, yeah. I noticed too.  :shock:

Pony rocks!


Offline jigokugal

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Reply #32 on: April 26, 2008, 04:54:24 PM
So, as what I read from Babak's deleted post, someone actually sent a message to Yoshiki and he got the answer YES, that's for Toshi?

why the previous thread was deleted? o.O

 jigokugal


Offline darkcat21

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Reply #33 on: April 26, 2008, 05:00:53 PM
No, someone asked if it was written to hide, and Yoshiki said yes.

Quote
I heard a song created by my friend at the world best studio.
We had a common friend who died almost 10 years ago, and the song came out of the sorrow, heartache and despair from the experience.
He said he made it at one sitting a few days after the friend's death.

 :wink:
~Toshi

hi there


Offline MillieQOF

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Reply #34 on: April 26, 2008, 05:48:16 PM
Quote from: "jigokugal"

why the previous thread was deleted? o.O

because we've gotten a rule that allows censoring.



Offline jigokugal

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Reply #35 on: April 26, 2008, 07:34:15 PM
Thanks guys for answering my questions.
After gathering some infos here and there, I have my own conclusion, (I know I will be debated so hard), that it originaly was for Toshi or about Toshi despite that indisputable evidence that Anna was talking about.
My main "evidence" is.. the cut off parts for the live version which are exactly the parts where it's "obviously" indicated Toshi. Why would it be cut off? if for shorten the song, why are they exactly 'those' parts? ..... Because the live version was for hide, so it's purposely edited that way.
*again, my own opinion and conclusion*

But anyway, as previously mentioned by others, we better close this discussion, cuz it goes to personal opinion at the end, that will lead to never-end full rage discussion.  :roll:

 jigokugal


Offline X-J

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Reply #36 on: April 29, 2008, 06:15:06 PM
Great ballad, among my favourites (Unfinished still takes the cake)! I also like the 16 min. classical ver. a lot, it has structure...

Only what is in motion can rest."
-Martin Heidegger


Offline radicalblues

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Reply #37 on: May 05, 2008, 06:30:02 PM
Edit: Oh nevermind, I remember where this comes from. I'll edit this properly when I get home, lulz will be ensued.



Offline xkurokei

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Reply #38 on: May 05, 2008, 06:56:28 PM
Quote from: "radicalblues"
I'm curious, with "cut-off" parts, are you talking about EMII english lyrics? Could you please quote which parts of the lyrics you think are intended for Toshi? It's pretty interesting.


you could see them at the other topic here.
there was a war going back there if you don't mind.  :roll:

Here comes hide!



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Offline radicalblues

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Reply #39 on: May 06, 2008, 05:12:37 AM
http://www.xradicaldreamers.net/xjapan/iv_yoshikilong.htm

Quote
Y: No, it stopped everything, it means that time I stooped all my works about music.

S: Stopped all works about music?

Y: Because I didn't know what to do, I was all blinded, so that time I didn't want to have interviewed, didn't want to play music for whoever. The only thing I could do is... to produce, that time I couldn't even write my own songs, the only one song I could do is... the song for hide... ar... do you want to listen a bit?

S: Sure I do.

Y: Ok, we'll go back to the studio.

By that words... we had to go back to the studio again, Yoshiki sat down in front of PA and set DAT and saying "The name of this song is Without you" Then the beautiful ballad melodies were poured out from the large megaphone. This song is for hide's death, every notes and words were passed on his whole feeling. As if each note pray for hide to heaven. This song is really different of Violet UK... his new solo unit but strange in similar to X Japan's, if the vocal not be Toshi anymore... everyone will believed that this is new song of X. After we had listened for 6 minutes the vocal in last words was vanished while a light sound from Yoshiki, "In fact I want Toshi to sing this song...", although that studio was covered of dark but... I could saw clearly that around Yoshiki's eye have some tears...


This is beautiful. After reading the whole thread, only like 2 users, specially PN, were insisting on it being for Toshi and not for hide. One of the arguments that sustained the drama was that Yoshiki never said that the song was for hide before being implied by an interviewer if it was for hide.

In this interview, Yoshiki takes the initiative to talk about the song. In fact I don't remember an interview that mentions Without You before.

Now, before anyone asks for original japanese script, it's from a Shoxx magazine issue from 2000, search it yourself, if you're in Japan. Taking credit away from this source is ridiculous, doubting the translation is ridiculous, context is enough to make it clear. They were taking about hide and Yoshiki says "oh, I wrote this song for hide, wanna hear?". There.

About the argument of "we were born at the same time, pursued the same dream" thing, time is a very vast concept. The same time can be the same decade, the same age, era, whatever. Also hide shared the dream of music.

Of course, it's only natural for Without You to hold certain feeling like it was meant for Toshi, since he was also away from Yoshiki at the time, and Yoshiki might have also projected some feelings about Toshi, maybe Yoshiki himself hasn't it clear in his mind. But here you just got evidence, from Yoshiki's words, saying he wrote the song for hide. Textually.

What is it now? baww, the interviewed pressured him to speak about hide and Yoshiki had to say it was for hide? or is it people projecting their fantasies on wanting it to be for hide? Meh, say what you want, all evidence says it's for hide. None evidence (ambiguous song lines ain't evidence) says it's for Toshi.

However, I do agree that the song may have some of Yoshiki's feelings for Toshi. But I see it more like Yoshiki wanting Toshi to speak for him. After all, it would be silly from Yoshiki wanting Toshi to sing a song for... himself.



Offline MillieQOF

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Reply #40 on: May 06, 2008, 06:36:39 AM
Quote from: "Anna"
However, as the evidence at that time (as Babak stated) was quite undisputable, I see no point discussing it anymore.   :)


As I now too have been made aware of this evidence I say the same.
Sadly, it cannot be presented here because of the censorship going on at the boards.



Offline xkurokei

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Reply #41 on: May 06, 2008, 07:02:30 AM
Quote from: "radicalblues"
http://www.xradicaldreamers.net/xjapan/iv_yoshikilong.htm

The same time can be the same decade, the same age, era, whatever. Also hide shared the dream of music.

Yes my thoughts exactly, I wrote it in my myspace blog too.

Anyway thanks for sharing the interview!  :D

Here comes hide!



Psychedelic Violence X Crime of Visual Shock


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #42 on: May 06, 2008, 07:59:39 AM
Quote from: "radicalblues"
After all, it would be silly from Yoshiki wanting Toshi to sing a song for... himself.

Heheh, indeed.

Great post by the way, thanks for sharing that interview.

Quote from: "radicalblues"
About the argument of "we were born at the same time, pursued the same dream" thing, time is a very vast concept. The same time can be the same decade, the same age, era, whatever. Also hide shared the dream of music.

Yeah, I also don't see "we were born at the same time, pursued the same dream" as being any kind of "proof" of it being for Toshi at all.  Frankly, the same could be said of Yoshiki and Pata. :P

Well, anyway.  Between the material in Babak's deleted post, this interview, etc., etc., I think it's quite clear that it's for hide.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline jigokugal

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Reply #43 on: May 06, 2008, 09:10:03 AM
Hmm.. interesting. Thanks for the post blues. It kinda changed my perspective.
Since Yoshiki said that way, the song is for hide.
I'm not in hide's or toshi's side, but, there's something bothering me, which is... those parts that were cut for the live version. I mean, why would they eliminate them and exactly them?
Maybe, except if that explains Yoshiki wrote some parts of the lyrics especially those ones by thinking of Toshi (as lots of things happened and his feelings to Toshi and hide were mixed) and he realized they just didn't really suit the whole context. Or although it's intentionally for hide, it held a 'message' for Toshi before their friendship returned.
In your deleted post, you mentioned that a male and female singers sang the song as a demo, did they sing the full lyrics (EMII version) or something else?

 jigokugal


Offline Maya

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Reply #44 on: May 06, 2008, 02:27:16 PM
I just read the first site of the other thread and the "noo, it can't be hide! he was born one year earlier!"-argument made me laugh so hard XDDD As if Yoshikis lyrics had to be taken THAT concrete ... it are lyrics ... for a song ... and words don't always mean what they actually say. XD (In german i'd know how to say this right ... :/). Deeper meaning anyone?
"We were born at the same time" has a kind of ... romantic tone in my ears- It could mean so many things. And I would be very surpsrised, if it was just about something that trivial like a ... birth date.
XD

So ... and about the whole discussion ... I always thought it's for hide. Because I also read that interview radicalblues quoted ...
So I never really tried figuring out with the help of the lyrics for whom it could be ... since it seemed obvious to me.
But I also think it's possible (or even very likely), that Yoshikis feelings for Toshi also flew into the songtext ... purposely or not. e,e

Yeah ... But I can't even see, why people argue that much about it xD; Anyone can believe what he wants and in the end it's Yoshiki who knows the truth. XD

Wild passion~

"C'mon Yoshiki, you can do this ... if you do it fast, maybe noone notices it's happening ..."
"Eeeek, he kissed me xD"


Offline Maverick

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Reply #45 on: May 06, 2008, 03:33:20 PM
Quote from: "Maya19"
XDDD As if Yoshikis lyrics had to be taken THAT concrete ... it are lyrics ... for a song ... and words don't always mean what they actually say. XD (In german i'd know how to say this right ... :/). Deeper meaning anyone?


Then go and listen to the lyrics of other songs again and think about what you said here >.> Sorry, but i think if you take it that way, you got it totally wrong.
Yoshiki's songs tell more than thousand words - that's by the way something Toshi personally said some time back.

Everywhere there flows...... BLUE BLOOD!!



Offline ferret

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Reply #46 on: May 06, 2008, 03:48:05 PM
Quote from: "Maya19"
... and words don't always mean what they actually say.


Tell that those fundamentalistic religious people. :P

RIP


Offline Anna

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Reply #47 on: May 06, 2008, 03:52:59 PM
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Yoshiki's songs tell more than thousand words - that's by the way something Toshi personally said some time back.


Well, isn't that what Maya implied?  :?

Pony rocks!


Offline Maverick

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Reply #48 on: May 06, 2008, 03:56:36 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote
Yoshiki's songs tell more than thousand words - that's by the way something Toshi personally said some time back.


Well, isn't that what Maya implied?  :?


Then I woulnd't understand why above all the most obvious meaning shouldn't mean what it says :?
Never mind, I don't want to discuss about 'Without You' in particular and for whom it is written.  :P

Everywhere there flows...... BLUE BLOOD!!



Offline Anna

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Reply #49 on: May 06, 2008, 03:58:55 PM
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Then I woulnd't understand why above all the most obvious meaning shouldn't mean what it says  


Because of endless possibilites, limited only by Yoshiki's mind.

Or whatever.  :P

Pony rocks!


Offline nage

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Reply #50 on: May 06, 2008, 04:03:21 PM
Being born at the same time can mean a decade.... it's a time... time... flowing... time... eternal... continual...

And... have you heard about metaphors? :D

I never even thought the song could be for someone else than hide. O.o So I really don't get the need to discuss it... x_x;


May X be with you!


Offline Maverick

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Reply #51 on: May 06, 2008, 04:04:24 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote
Then I woulnd't understand why above all the most obvious meaning shouldn't mean what it says  


Because of endless possibilites, limited only by Yoshiki's mind.

Or whatever.  :P


:P Second that.

Everywhere there flows...... BLUE BLOOD!!



Offline xkurokei

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Reply #52 on: May 06, 2008, 04:09:03 PM
Quote from: "nage"
I never even thought the song could be for someone else than hide. O.o


Same here. O.o I was kinda confused and shocked when I saw that someone said it was for Toshi.

Here comes hide!



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Offline Maya

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Reply #53 on: May 06, 2008, 05:00:09 PM
Quote from: "Maverick"
Then go and listen to the lyrics of other songs again and think about what you said here >.> Sorry, but i think if you take it that way, you got it totally wrong.
Yoshiki's songs tell more than thousand words - that's by the way something Toshi personally said some time back.


o.o; Euh ... Anna is right, I was just trying to say exactly THIS.
And I also just tried to express I don't think that the most obvious meaning is always the right ... this is too simple imo. (That's why I said "deeper meaning" XD) I'm just referring to this single line anyway xD; the "we were born at the same time". I just don't believe it means a birth date (/year), but something more extensive and less obvious. If you now think i don't get the lyrics at all ... well, fine. ee;

Wild passion~

"C'mon Yoshiki, you can do this ... if you do it fast, maybe noone notices it's happening ..."
"Eeeek, he kissed me xD"


Offline radicalblues

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Reply #54 on: May 06, 2008, 05:06:36 PM
First,
http://www.xradicaldreamers.net/xjapan/iv_uvbreak.htm


Quote

Y: Then I went back to LA and made a song for hide.

K: Dedicate to hide?

Y: Yes. It is called "Without You". It's like "Endless Rain", "Say Anything", "Forever Love". I was really depressed after I made that song. I couldn't have made the song for myself after that. I tend to think about X or about myself or hide when I make my own song. Then I prefer the produce work for other artists to the work for myself. I could think only other artists when I produced them.

K: I see.


Translation by Yumiko from Endless Dream, from Ultra Veat magazine, for the skeptics.

About the demo versions of Without You: That I know of, there are at least two of them, and both are not available to public.
One is from the interview on previous page, which doesn't specify if it has a female or male vocal, but I think it's one with a female vocal I also read somewhere else... I can't find the interview now, maybe I haven't even uploaded it, I'll try to confirm it, sorry. Another one is known by all, Toshi first heard Without You recorded with a temporal male vocal.

About the omitted lines from Tokyo Domes: it could be many things, maybe just for live version, maybe Yoshiki did felt they didn't fit. But...

Quote
Even though I can't see you anymore
Your memory will live in my heart
Forever
As well as love does
So I won't say... Good bye


How is that not for hide? It does hold some resemblance with Yoshiki's and Toshi's distancement, but that's taking things out of context. What you can't see is a dead friend, but even though, through love, you never say good bye to them. Anyone who has beloved ones in the otherworld can understand that.

And, well, that's it. I'll try to find the source talking about Without You with a female vocal, the website is a mess right now since we're in the middle of a well needed redesign and hopefully a full english version after.



Offline Radical Pan

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Reply #55 on: May 06, 2008, 05:11:47 PM
Quote from: "Babak"

radicalblues, marry me? <3

Sorry, we're already engaged TOT

I honestly can't understand what's the big fuss about this, he said it was for hide, LITERALLY, period.


Offline Maverick

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Reply #56 on: May 06, 2008, 05:14:55 PM
Quote from: "Maya19"
That's why I said "deeper meaning" XD) I'm just referring to this single line anyway xD; the "we were born at the same time". I just don't believe it means a birth date (/year), but something more extensive and less obvious. If you now think i don't get the lyrics at all ... well, fine. ee;

Well, I just can't figure then what the 'deeper meaning' should be in this case - so that it has NOTHING to do anymore with being born (to me that word simply can be the same place, the same time, the same situation, the same interests, whatever... but it still keeps it's original meaning)

@ radical pan: who makes a fuss?  till now I only can see people who have the opinion it's for hide writing 'period' (fitting word) it is for hide.

Everywhere there flows...... BLUE BLOOD!!



Offline Radical Pan

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Reply #57 on: May 06, 2008, 05:20:53 PM
Quote from: "Maverick"

@ radical pan: who makes a fuss?  till now I only can see people who have the opinion it's for hide writing 'period' (fitting word) it is for hide.

What do you want me to do then? write to SHOXX, UV or whatever, and flame them for putting "fake words" as it were Yoshiki's? seriously :roll:


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #58 on: May 06, 2008, 05:24:49 PM
Quote from: "Maya19"
Yeah ... But I can't even see, why people argue that much about it xD; Anyone can believe what he wants and in the end it's Yoshiki who knows the truth. XD

Totally agree with this, well said.

I think it's extremely obvious that all evidence points to it being about hide, though ultimately I don't really care, and people are welcome to think what they want-- as you said, only Yoshiki really knows.  That said, I think Yoshiki's made his thoughts on it very clear.  He said (multiples times) that it was for hide.  But if someone doesn't want to believe Yoshiki's own words-- well, whatever.  That's their business, I suppose.

The part that doesn't make sense to me is why some people are so militant in insisting that it was for Toshi.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Maverick

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Reply #59 on: May 06, 2008, 05:45:08 PM
Quote from: "Radical Pan"
What do you want me to do then? write to SHOXX, UV or whatever, and flame them for putting "fake words" as it were Yoshiki's? seriously :roll:


Huh? Doing what for what reason? I haven't said anything that things you said were wrong. If you think I did, well, that's then up to you

Quote from: "Hollywood"

The part that doesn't make sense to me is why some people are so militant in insisting that it was for Toshi.

And the part what makes even less sense to me is why people are digging again and again in the past about others who once have said it was written for Toshi such as if it has happened yesterday. And as if there's an unwritten law anywhere which says it's forbidden to have own thoughts about that case. such as people who don't agree 100% are morons, idiots, blind, or fundamentalistic religious

You personally said Yoshiki alone knows the truth, so I think you have to live with other opinions, as well

Everywhere there flows...... BLUE BLOOD!!