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Early visual, yes or no?

Hollywood · 5937

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Offline Hollywood

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on: March 22, 2008, 07:31:54 PM
So I always think to myself, "I hate modern visual kei but the old stuff was really cool", though if I'm to be honest I haven't even listened to any of "the old stuff" for... I don't know, a couple years now.

I had this scary thought yesterday: what if early visual was in my opinion of course dumb too but I just didn't realize it at the time?  That would suck.  Thus I decided to actually listen to some of it again and re-evaluate.

Anyone else had a similar relationship with visual?  Is it really just something you go through when you're younger and then grow out of like 99.9% of the visual bands themselves do?  Or not?

I'm starting to think some of it may actually have been good.  I just listened to "History of Extasy 15th Anniversary" again and thought it was pretty damn cool.  Though half those bands probably don't even count as "visual" I guess, and three of the songs are X anyway, so maybe that's cheating. :twisted:

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Offline YusamiUne

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Reply #1 on: March 23, 2008, 03:41:38 PM
If you mean old old, such as the start of it all? No, because, to me at least, it was pretty diverse.

X looked different that Buck Tick who looked different that Color and they all sounded different as well.

Today everyone looks the same and sounds the same (I swear everyone sounds like early Dir en grey to me).

A friend of mine is insane over Nightmare. She loves them and goes on and on about how cute they are <<; I gave em a listen and they sound waaay too happy for my taste. Then she told me to try Gazette and they sounded the same! Another friend told me to listen to Antique Cafe...I did...Same.

I say no worries my friend, old VK was more diverse in both visuals and sound. And since it's pretty much still in the water, nothing will change that :D

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #2 on: March 23, 2008, 07:51:25 PM
Thanks man, if you too think there's a clear distinction between the early stuff and the new stuff, then I feel better now.  100% agree with this part by the way:
Quote from: "YusamiUne"
A friend of mine is insane over Nightmare. She loves them and goes on and on about how cute they are <<; I gave em a listen and they sound waaay too happy for my taste. Then she told me to try Gazette and they sounded the same! Another friend told me to listen to Antique Cafe...I did...Same.

I can totally sympathize, that stuff is traumatizingly cute.  Honestly I can't even look in SHOXX or Fool's Mate anymore... it's full of all these guys with five pink bows in their hair and sparkles on their eyeballs and ponytails coming out the sides of their heads or something.  And they are ALWAYS touching their lips with one finger.  Always.  Total WTF for me.  To me they look (and sound) like the worst possible cutesy-cutesy Jpop girl bands...

And that's what scares me.  I see that and I think-- how did it come to this??  There weren't elements of that in the old visual bands I remember liking, were there?

Anyway, so far in my re-listening and re-evaluating, I've discovered that Buck-Tick and Luna Sea are still cool to me, other than a few of Luna Sea's early costumes, which nowadays I think look pretty silly.  Laputa has not worn quite as well, but is still OK.  Malice Mizer... never was into them, but now it's beyond that and I find them funny-ha-ha. :twisted:  And all those Matina bands... I used to think they were alright, but now... no.  Just no.

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Offline YusamiUne

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Reply #3 on: March 23, 2008, 08:05:44 PM
I try to justify it that VK was all about shock and counter-culture. The 80s was a time of conservative ways of life, even for Japan.

My Japanese instructor used to tell me before bands like X came along there weren't really and hard rock or heavy metal bands.

So now we have it acceptable to be loud, heavy, and raunchy and unacceptable for guys to be cutesy, reserved, and sensitive. I say this knowing it's not at all true.

But we can thank God that most of these post 1997 VK bands have been 15 minutes, bubblegum if you will.

The ones that manage to stick are, I think, staying true to the original concept all together.

Of course I would like to see bands like they were. Saber Tiger's look was one of my favorites (hide's Saber Tiger btw) and I long for this era again.

I've tried to get VK bands started where I live but sadly all the musicians who agree to it want to dress up like little emo cunts (scuse my french).

I've heard of some American and Canadian VK bands from a friend of mine a while back (back before I knew anyone else outside of Japan was into X besides he and I).

I thin kI strayed a little but here: you aren't alone. If I remember right you were the one pushing Versailles? Keep up that.

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #4 on: March 23, 2008, 08:35:33 PM
Quote from: "YusamiUne"
My Japanese instructor used to tell me before bands like X came along there weren't really and hard rock or heavy metal bands.

Hmm, I guess it depends on how you define "bands like X"-- by the time X themselves came along, Japan's metal scene was already in full gear.  Loudness started in 1981, Vow Wow (well, Bow Wow at the time) even before that, etc.

But I totally agree about those post-1997 VK bands, other than Dir en grey they've pretty much all been flashes in the pan (thankfully).  Even aside of the original concept, I think that ultimately to stick around for a while as a rock band, you need good songs.  X, Buck-Tick (personally I consider them new wave rather than visual, but they're "related" to visual anyway), Luna Sea... they all have some great songs.  But the new VK stuff all sounds exactly the same to me.

And when I was younger I went through a time of wanting to start a visual band, but nowadays I know I couldn't pull off that look even if I wanted to (and I don't want to anyway).  If through some bizarre twist of fate I ended up in a visual band, I'd have to be that one guy who dresses like a Western rocker-- you know, the one whom everyone complains isn't visual enough. :twisted:  But hey, if you manage to find the right people... go for it!

Quote from: "YusamiUne"
If I remember right you were the one pushing Versailles?

Hmm, wasn't me-- to be honest I don't even know who Versailles is. :P

But anyway, glad I'm not the only one who thinks the old visual was better than the new visual.  I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I think of the old visual nowadays, but hey, no matter what... it's better than the new stuff.

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Offline Arucard

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Reply #5 on: March 23, 2008, 09:18:49 PM
To me the whole point here is that back in 80's and early 90's how a band looked was just a detail, and all the bands that were párt of the visual kei movement knew how to make good songs... Nowadays if a band looks "good" (to me they all look ridiculous) this band will make money, no mather how crappy they sound... That's why everyone just sounds like the same fucking thing...

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Offline Envenom

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Reply #6 on: March 23, 2008, 09:32:29 PM
I think most of those ''visual'' bands suck anyway (at least the bands I know of, hehe). The moment I first heard X I had no idea that they looked like drag queens, haha! And Japan's best heavy metal bands weren't visual anyway imo.

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Offline Matthias

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Reply #7 on: March 23, 2008, 09:49:12 PM
I won't say all "nowadays visual kei bands" sound the same (how could they, it's just a look, not a musical style). Cause if you compare (let's take a few artists) Miyavi, Versailles, The GazettE and Due le Quartz (okay, they don't exists anymore, but they existed post 1997), then I don't think they all sound the same. What they may have in common is a very unusual look, but even this look differs. I have to admit that I don't know every band in this scene (not even close to know every band), but the few bands I know (and like) sounds pretty different.
Where I have to agree is, that many artists seem to sell records through the "oh my god, they are so cute, kawaii!!!"factor, but for me the music is more important and the look is just, well the look *g*



Offline VioletCamicat

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Reply #8 on: March 24, 2008, 12:10:45 AM
Matina bands <- Uhm... what is this..? :oops:

And I just realized, that I'm not so into VK, haha. I mean, only listen to X, Loudness, 44Magnum, Anthem and so on, when it's about Japanese stuff... oh, and all of Taiji's stuff naturally! :P
So I assume for me it's just the music, which is the important thing and not so much the style. I like the style of X, no doubt on that - strange thing is, that I don't like to see that overacted style on other bands. :? I'm fine with the usual sleaze style then. In my opinion VK started as overacted version of punk/wave and some KISS or Ziggy Stardust influences and later mixed up with an overacted version of sleaze style.

And today it's an overacted thing of the overacted past in the style. :shock: And VK stuff nowadays is in my opinion mostly about making money. In the past it was just about shocking and having a good time with mates who also want to shock - and about music! Just being loud - with music and with style!

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Offline Artseeker

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Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 10:44:26 AM
I'm totally in old school vk 8)
Besides bands like Versailles,Phantasmagoria,Moi Dix Mois or Sugar for example,I don't listen to any of the new vk wave bands because I think they really do sound all the same.

Here are some bands you should definitely check out if you wanna listen to good vk in my opinion

Baiser(especially the albums "Ash" and "Terre")
Deshabillz
Due Le Quartz(Miyavi previous band)
Je Reviens(one of Asagi's previous bands)
Syndrome(one of Kisaki's previous bands)
Mirage(first band with Kisaki)
Kuroyume
early L'arc En Ciel(the albums "Dune" and "Tierra")
early Dir en grey(the albums "Gauze","Macabre" and "Kisou")
Lareine(one of Kamijo's previous bands)
Schwarz Stein(one of Kaya's previous bands)
Noir Fleurir
Amadeus(one of Seiji's previous bands)
Fiction(Lucifer Violenoue previous band)
Eins:Vier
and of course Malice Mizer and Luna Sea

Each one of these bands has its own very unique style and contribuited to make (old school)vk one of the most interesting movements in Japan in my opinion.Early vk had its roots mostly in post-punk/gothic rock and was characterized by a dark/romantic/melancholic atmosphere.There're also many other good bands that deserve a mention apart from those in the list above,bands that for some reason ended up being completely forgotten even by Japanese people.

If you dig post-punk,gothic rock(sometimes with some pop contaminations)you'll surely like all of these bands :wink:


Offline VioletCamicat

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Reply #10 on: March 24, 2008, 11:28:38 AM
Hm, but isn't this already the 2nd generation of VK? @ Artseeker

I don't know for sure, because I don't know all these bands. But Dir en Grey for instance started around 15 or 10 years ago. And about some of the other bands I'd guess they are from the 90s as well (Lareine, Due Le Quartz etc.).
When I think of old school VK or its beginnings, I much more think of Luna Sea, Color, Kamaitachi... aah.. but on the other hand I don't know really when to start calling it VK, to be honest. For me X isn't really VK - although Yoshiki often might have looked very feminine.
Boy George did so on purpose as well and no one would count him to VK. XD
And when I saw Malice Mizer first, I just thought they're weird goths. :? Aaah, I dunno...

I stop it now - I make no sense at the moment.

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And out of the chaos I heard a voice telling me:
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So I smiled and was happy... and it became worse


Offline Artseeker

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Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 11:36:59 AM
All the American gothic bands are not vk because "Visual Kei" is a term used only in Japan and it referred to a Japanese reinterpretation of the gothic rock/post punk genre with the addition of extravagant clothes.the whole movement  was born from the pre-existent gothic scene,if you check the sound of some Japanese gothic bands in the eighties and then look for some of the early ninties ones you can clearly see the connection,only,at first it was pure gothic rock than it changed into a sound mixing more elements from different genres,but always with gothic atmospheres at its core.Now things have evolved and changed of course.
Believe me,I've been doing a lot of research about it because I was really interested in the whole evolution of this particular genre,there's no reason I would make up things without having proofs of what I say.

L'Arc En Ciel were maybe not that much vk in terms of clothing,but I can assure you that they were 100% vk in terms of sound at the beginning of their career.Vk was not only about the clothes,but mainly about the sound,now it seems that the situation has changed though there're are good exceptions of course.

Anyway,I don't wanna argue with nobody about this,so you're completely free to agree with me or not. :D

Quote from: "VioletCamicat"
Hm, but isn't this already the 2nd generation of VK? @ Artseeker


yeah,I mentioned the bands from the nineties,but there were already vk bands in the eighties,unfortunately I'm still looking for most of them,it's pretty difficult to find that stuff :cry:

And yes X are not that visual kei even though Extasy Records contribuited to the whole movement with bands like Ex Ans,Gilles Rais ecc(I should have included those in the list as well actually :D )


Offline darkcat21

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Reply #12 on: March 24, 2008, 08:45:20 PM
There's no new visual because visual died in 1994.

hi there


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #13 on: March 25, 2008, 04:42:07 AM
Quote from: "darkcat21"
There's no new visual because visual died in 1994.

We have a winner!  Best post on this thread. 8)

@Camicat, Matina was an indie visual record label from... uh... around the year 2000 or so.  Can't remember the dates precisely and don't really care, but it was like 3rd-generation visual, when there were ten million indie bands that all looked and sounded the same.  Someone gave me a copy of a Matina concert video years ago, and upon rewatching it the other day, I couldn't get through even 20 minutes of it (and that was WITH the fast-forward button).

Quote from: "Artseeker"
Baiser(especially the albums "Ash" and "Terre")
Deshabillz
Due Le Quartz(Miyavi previous band)
Je Reviens(one of Asagi's previous bands)
Syndrome(one of Kisaki's previous bands)
Mirage(first band with Kisaki)
Kuroyume
early L'arc En Ciel(the albums "Dune" and "Tierra")
early Dir en grey(the albums "Gauze","Macabre" and "Kisou")
Lareine(one of Kamijo's previous bands)
Schwarz Stein(one of Kaya's previous bands)
Noir Fleurir
Amadeus(one of Seiji's previous bands)
Fiction(Lucifer Violenoue previous band)
Eins:Vier
and of course Malice Mizer and Luna Sea

Out of all those, I'd only consider Luna Sea and Kuroyume to be oldschool visual.  Maybe Eins:Vier too but I forget exactly when they started.

As for the evolution of visual discussion... first of all, I want to say: I don't mean any of this maliciously, merely as friendly debate.  But the proper ancestry of visual is one of the great debates about the genre, and one I feel particularly strongly about. :twisted:

Remember that new wave/post-punk/goth is traditionally synthesizer-based music, or at least incorporates keyboards and/or synthesizers as an important part of its sound.  These genres fully embraced synthesized sounds and tended to reject the standard rock'n'roll band format of having an acoustic drummer, an electric bassist, and at least one electric guitarist (with vocals by either a dedicated vocalist or a guitarist/bassist).  These kinds of bands usually also rejected classic rock and metal and wanted nothing to do with those genres.

Now... remember that keyboards/synths were EXTREMELY rare among first-generation visual bands.  Luna Sea's indie debut self-titled album, released on Extasy Records, even says "------ No synthesizer ------" at the end of the credits in the booklet.

The vast majority of early visual bands were set up like traditional rock/metal bands.  They typically had an acoustic drummer, an electric bassist, one or two electric guitarists, and a vocalist (singing bassists/guitarists seem very rare for some reason).

The early visual musicians frequently name Western rock/metal bands and performers as among their influences.  For example, Luna Sea's Sugizo says that he first got the idea of rock music + makeup from a KISS poster.  The Sunset Strip metal scene is another obvious influence... playing rock music while wearing makeup/looking feminine is nothing new at all.

And in Japan itself there were a lot of metal-->visual "transitional" bands, many of whom were even more directly inspired by KISS, the Strip, etc... Seikima II, the photography in EZO's self-titled album, Kabuki Rocks, Dead End, and of course X.  There were also early "visual" bands who played pretty much straightforward metal, like the visual thrash metal band Aion.

The very existence of Dead End makes it pretty clear that visual evolved from metal.  These guys looked (mostly) like a Sunset Strip band-- and played dark, moody metal about lunatics and skeletons and zombies and whatever.  Not surprisingly, a lot of visual bands name Dead End as an influence...

So yeah, that got a lot longer than I thought.  But it's so clear to me that visual is a "corruption" of metal, not a "corruption" of new wave/goth.

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Offline YusamiUne

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Reply #14 on: March 25, 2008, 01:20:30 PM
I always saw VK as a genre defined but it's look where the sound could be anything.

Look at X and Luna Sea. Two very different sounds.

Musically it was hard to match VK bands. I mean, now you can, easily. They all use harmonized chords, standard tuning, play dead notes in between notes, use cutesy sounds >.>;

And as much as I want to agree VK died in 94 I can't XD I sitll mark the date as pre and post 1997!

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Offline Artseeker

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Reply #15 on: March 25, 2008, 01:55:19 PM
Quote from: "Honey"
Artseeker
So if the Pillows wore Make Up would that make them Visual Kei?

I don't think sound has much to do with Visual Kei it's more the look..
I have nothing against Visual Kei I just don't like the way it's used so widely.

Like you can call any Japanese musicians Visual Kei...


The Pillows are not visual kei,not because they don't wear make up but also because their sound is not dark,if compared with the bands that are part of this movement.Anyway ,I don't like the way this term is used either honestly, every band is visual kei now :roll:

I would like to post a link with a blog that has some examples of what I call Visual Kei,which includes(@ Taiji) also some metal bands with a darker sound,but can't do it because it's full of download links,so if you want I can pm you guys(I'm sure you would also find some bands really interesting and maybe you'll find some cds you still haven't heard of,there's pretty rare stuff in this blog :wink: )

Btw,what I'm trying to say is that the main features of visual kei(eighies/nineties) are these two:

-Dark atmosphere
-Melancholic melodies

this is the core of old school visual kei,now,every good band have incorporated different influence in it,but it's still visual kei in the end(Baiser added pop,Amadeus added classical music and so on)

What makes visual kei so interesting is that every good band adds its own style to the core of this genre.There's nothing like that outside of Japan.
Hopefully I've made myself more clear this time,even though,as Taiji said,this is a very difficult subject to define.
Anyway,I don't hold the truth in my hands and I guess no one will ever do,but the more I explore this genre the more I realize that in a way or in another the gothic factor is present in every true visual kei manifestation.

About the new bands that are emerging nowadays,I think that they like to call themselves visual kei to draw more people to their music(also outside of Japan)but the true sense of the term is completely lost in my opinion.
Right now there's not a single band I would really call Visual kei(not even Versailles even though they have very peculiar clothes).

Btw,this is a cool thread 8)

Oh,I forgot:
@ Taiji: Eins:Vier started their activities in 1990 and disbanded in 1999 :wink:


Offline YusamiUne

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Reply #16 on: March 25, 2008, 06:05:52 PM
I have some friends from Japan and they tell me it's never really been that popular. Bands like X and Luna Sea being an exception.

Course they didn't really listen to VK so they could just be very biased.

If you listen to a lot of death metal you might say it's very popular and others who don't might say it isn't if I said all that right...

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Offline VioletCamicat

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Reply #17 on: March 25, 2008, 08:36:31 PM
@ Artseeker: Do you mean Hollywood with "Taiji"? I'm just confused. ;)

8) And apart from this just lurking because when I start to think what VK is and what not I simply get knots in my brain. :P

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And out of the chaos I heard a voice telling me:
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So I smiled and was happy... and it became worse


Offline Artseeker

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Reply #18 on: March 27, 2008, 09:24:24 AM
Quote from: "VioletCamicat"
@ Artseeker: Do you mean Hollywood with "Taiji"? I'm just confused. ;)



Oh,yeah...sorry :D


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #19 on: March 27, 2008, 09:22:31 PM
Heheh, I wondered about "Taiji" too. ;)

@Artseeker, Could you PM me that link by the way?  I can't hardly download anything anyway (I have a really bad connection... :roll:) but I'm really curious about the bands and CDs they list there.

Oh, and thanks for the Eins:Vier dates-- yeah, I'd consider them first-generation then.

Quote from: "Artseeker"
Btw,what I'm trying to say is that the main features of visual kei(eighies/nineties) are these two:

-Dark atmosphere
-Melancholic melodies

this is the core of old school visual kei,now,every good band have incorporated different influence in it,but it's still visual kei in the end(Baiser added pop,Amadeus added classical music and so on)

Yeah, totally agree.  The darkness is definitely a unifying theme in VK-- and I wouldn't consider a non-dark band to be VK.  

Though I think that for the majority of early visual bands, the darkness didn't come directly from new wave/post-punk/goth music, but rather from dark-themed metal bands (Dead End, X).  After all, darkness in metal bands is nothing new at all... darkness has been there from the start (Black Sabbath being the obvious example), though it later became de-emphasized.

And I see early visual as having been a lot more aggressive than traditional goth-- though visual then became more "goth" and also more passive in attitude as the years went by, especially due to goth-inspired bands like Malice Mizer.

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Offline Yurga~

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Reply #20 on: June 14, 2008, 05:04:50 PM
I am so sorry, this could sound very stupid....
But.....
What is "History of Extasy 15th Anniversary"?
Please tell me i really wanna know~ m( _ _ )m



Offline Hollywood

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Reply #21 on: June 14, 2008, 05:49:09 PM
Quote from: "Yurga~"
I am so sorry, this could sound very stupid....
But.....
What is "History of Extasy 15th Anniversary"?
Please tell me i really wanna know~ m( _ _ )m

Not stupid. ;)  It's an Extasy compilation album that came out several years ago.  It has one song each from several different old Extasy Records bands, and two each from the especially popular ones.

It's out of print now, but it's a great introduction to the classic Extasy stuff (I say "introduction" because depending on which Extasy albums you have, you might already have a lot of the songs).

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Offline Acchi

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Reply #22 on: August 17, 2008, 04:18:25 PM
I prefer the old style, where they looked more like rebels than.. victorian age women.
 (Versailles)

Theres one band i like, Kamaitachi, i really like their style, but iv only seen one video of them.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNUZvhpFw2U&feature=related[/youtube]
Big hair (like early hide/Toshi)
Leatherjackets
Studs
Sunglasses
Hahaah

Iv anyone could find more info on them or bands like that id be grateful :)



Offline Aerce

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Reply #23 on: August 17, 2008, 04:27:57 PM
Well I like visual bands a lot but I don't enjoy X's visual era at all..

I mean it's just simply awful stuff to look at.

Well, just my opinion. I loved how they looked during Last Live and they have still a great "style" going on.