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Enough with the word "Jrock"!

Hollywood · 16803

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Offline radicalblues

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Reply #30 on: April 15, 2008, 03:06:43 AM
Besides the language, I'm unable to see how japanese music sounds different from american or european.

It is true that Japan started adopting foreign sounds during the eleki boom and Group Sounds era, where every single rock band was a cover band. Overall you can see interesting music purposes, just seeing X Japan is enough, and some tendencies like Malice Mizer's idea of using barroque bizantine arranges. But they're just tendencies again, not enough to call a new genre.

Pan already said it, J-Pop came from J-Wave, which is still a pretty popular station.

Visual, which started around end of 70's, had a very characteristic look and sound tendencies, nothing compared to when it shifted to Visual Kei in the 90's, where bands just promote designer clothes.

I'm finishing writing a more elaborated article on all this story, I'm gonna publish it in english asap. It has information directly coming from the people involved in the backstage, stage and production of the whole story, so it's sweet.

In fact, anyone remembers when the term Visual Kei appeared? On the 80's it was just Visual, without the Kei. Some bands like Visual Scandal and Murbas started using the "Visual" motto, so that's what stuck around and gave it the name, but I don't know when exactly media started calling it Visual Kei.



Offline Sander

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Reply #31 on: April 15, 2008, 01:40:04 PM
Quote from: "Radical Pan"
f you like Rock, then you'll like ANY kind despite the language.
Ummm not really... I believe there are many people who are fans of only 'j-music' mainly because of the language...

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Offline Lucs

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Reply #32 on: April 15, 2008, 03:10:39 PM
Personaly I've never cared about the "genre" of the music. You know there are people fighting because that band belong to neo-speed-metal and not neo-gothic-metal or dunno what lol !

I just listen to the music I like 8) I certainly don't consider L'Arc~En~Ciel and  X-Japan being the same kind of music, but it doesn't really matter to me to call them both "JRock". For me JRock just means rock from Japan, nothing more. Even though I consider more L'Arc~En~Ciel has a Pop/Rock band and X Japan as a Hard Rock band. But those are just names... each band has his own style.


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #33 on: April 15, 2008, 10:52:26 PM
Quote from: "Hypno"
Ummm not really... I believe there are many people who are fans of only 'j-music' mainly because of the language...

But if you prefer Japanese music because you like the sound of the Japanese language, then (but please correct me if I've got it wrong) you like only Japanese-language rock, not even Japanese rock in general-- right?  Since a lot of Japanese rock has English-language lyrics.  I ask because to me that's something a lot different than the more common "I like Japanese rock because it sounds NOTHING LIKE OTHER ROCK AT ALL AND IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND WAY BETTER BECAUSE IT'S MADE BY JAPANESE PEOPLE", etc.  I mean, if you just really like the sound of the language itself and that's something important to you-- hey, go for it!  My annoyance isn't with that, but with the kind of attitude I put in all caps just now. :P

Pan and Blues, wow... you guys really rock.  I actually never knew that story about J-Wave, I had always assumed that the "J-" prefix was something that got stuck on by overseas fans.  You guys seriously need to publish an article on all this, not just in English but also in... hell, every other language you can. :P  People need to know this shit!

About "visual" vs. "visual kei", I first found out about Japanese rock (including visual) in about 1996 or so, and at the time the English-language internet fan community was calling it "visual rock" or sometimes "visual shock".  Or just "visual", yeah.  I wish I could remember the first time I saw the term "visual kei", but I can't remember really.  All I remember for sure is that it wasn't until years later-- I'd estimate around 1999-2000 or so, I suppose.

The rumor I've heard is that Mana from Malice Mizer claims he "invented visual kei" (ha... :roll:)-- I've never seen the supposed interview so I have no clue if that's true or not, but you guys might want to do some research in that direction.  It seems possible he had something to do with the invention of the term "visual kei" anyway, the timing would be about right (considering there would have been, at the time, some delay between when the term came into use in Japan and when it became popular among English-speakers).

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Offline Radical Pan

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Reply #34 on: April 16, 2008, 12:53:25 AM
Quote from: "Hypno"
Ummm not really... I believe there are many people who are fans of only 'j-music' mainly because of the language...

Well, that depends of people, because I totally hate hate HATE Portuguese, not the people, just the language, and I've heard a couple of Portuguese bands that sound neat, I like their music, but the language-- I prefer to avoid it. Saying that a band is more of less just because of it's nationality or language, if you ask me, is imbecile.

Quote from: "Hollywood"

Pan and Blues, wow... you guys really rock.  I actually never knew that story about J-Wave, I had always assumed that the "J-" prefix was something that got stuck on by overseas fans.  You guys seriously need to publish an article on all this, not just in English but also in... hell, every other language you can. :P  People need to know this shit!

About "visual" vs. "visual kei", I first found out about Japanese rock (including visual) in about 1996 or so, and at the time the English-language internet fan community was calling it "visual rock" or sometimes "visual shock".  Or just "visual", yeah.  I wish I could remember the first time I saw the term "visual kei", but I can't remember really.  All I remember for sure is that it wasn't until years later-- I'd estimate around 1999-2000 or so, I suppose.

The rumor I've heard is that Mana from Malice Mizer claims he "invented visual kei" (ha... :roll:)-- I've never seen the supposed interview so I have no clue if that's true or not, but you guys might want to do some research in that direction.  It seems possible he had something to do with the invention of the term "visual kei" anyway, the timing would be about right (considering there would have been, at the time, some delay between when the term came into use in Japan and when it became popular among English-speakers).

Well, that article Blues talked about, I wrote it for the first time about 4 years ago with the help of the friend I told you, and since then we've never stopped researching about the topic, interesting thing you always find more and more.

We have already covered the Mana part, and indeed, there's a notable difference between Visual and Visual Kei, and yes, Mana was the one who named this neo Visual as Visual Kei, let me explain.


In Japan, Visual started on middle 70's by copying Black Sabbath's looks and Glam attitude and clothing, bands like Murbas and Visual Scandal were the first ones to do this, because they wanted to attract more people to their lives, wanted to be noticed, so they transformed those looks into what turned to be Visual, something to impress the audience and that had some kind of relation with their music style. Why make up? to avoid people calling them "copy cat". Visual was just a nickname they used to be identified by their looks.

Later, Seikima II joined, but they were into another level because they were a little bit more traditional, y'know that KISS make up came from Japanese theater Kabuki, when only men can perform, so they use make up to cover up as women and show expressions. But they used armors, this was a common thread on Visual back then, which X also copied, and so did a bunch of other bands like SAVER TIGER and Urgh Police!!.
X were the ones who made Visual go mainstream though, they were the first band of that circle to ever made it to TV Stations, but that DOES NOT makes them what ignorant people call them "fathers of Visual/Visual Kei".

This Visual thing was a huge boom, but everything that goes up gotta fall someday, so when X decided to quit this Visual style (say 94), most of the bands in it did it as well, they were already known and the style wasn't that popular anymore. That's when Mana comes, at that time he had MALICE MIZER with Tetsu, they dressed like Visual, but when Gackt came Mana decided he couldn't let that style die, and that's when he transformed the concept of Visual and gave it the name of Visual Kei in magazines, because that's how MALICE MIZER wanted to be called about their looks. He mixed barroque looks with French maids of XV Century, also known as Lolita, but he twisted all those pop cultures and meanings to his own way (this was also the birth of his clothing store, Moi-même-Moitié). At the end Visual Kei was an aesthetic movement that complemented music; if they were singing about death, at their concerts they had this huge scenario of a gothic church and clothing that made easy to tell that story by their music.

LAREINE also followed MALICE MIZER path, but there weren't much bands that respected VK main point, nowdays being VK means to wear weird clothing and some make up, but most of them don't represent anything by it, but well, you can't avoid it, clothing brands like h.Naoto and SeX PoT ReVenGe have bought bands entirely, what else can they do?


...wow that was long XD lol, but yeah, the "J-" thing article and the Visual/VK one are the ones we're been working on for years.
Sorry for making the post this long and thanks to anyone who read it.


Offline VioletCamicat

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Reply #35 on: April 16, 2008, 01:41:28 AM
Wow! Thank you very much for this explanation, Pan!
Really, it's cool to read it summarized like that and I didn't know about Visual Shock and Murbas really.
And I also didn't know about that Mana invented the term - I just guessed that MM was the band who pushed it more to the goth and Baroque style (I wouldn't say 15th Century - rather 17th and 18th ;)).

Was really great to read this! Again: Thank you! :D

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #36 on: April 16, 2008, 02:04:30 AM
Yeah, great stuff Pan!  Thanks for posting that!

One thing I wanted to comment on specifically:
Quote from: "Radical Pan"
Why make up? to avoid people calling them "copy cat". Visual was just a nickname they used to be identified by their looks.

Later, Seikima II joined, but they were into another level because they were a little bit more traditional, y'know that KISS make up came from Japanese theater Kabuki, when only men can perform, so they use make up to cover up as women and show expressions. But they used armors, this was a common thread on Visual back then, which X also copied, and so did a bunch of other bands like SAVER TIGER and Urgh Police!!.

About the makeup and also the armor: have you guys looked into the possible (and in my mind, extremely likely) influence of the '80s Sunset Strip metal bands-- what is called "LA metal" in Japan or sometimes "hair metal" in other parts of the world-- on X's appearance?  For example, that armor that X used to wear, especially on the cover of the Orgasm EP, REALLY resembles some old Motley Crue and WASP costumes, and some of X's makeup also strongly resembles bands from that scene.  If you're interested I can try to find pics and stuff, some of the similarities are pretty funny.  There were other Japanese metal bands at the time who drew heavily from the Sunset Strip style too, though as far as I can tell, X was the only "visual" band to do so (personally I see X as being at least halfway lodged in the Japanese metal scene, rather than being purely a visual band).

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Offline Radical Pan

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Reply #37 on: April 16, 2008, 02:58:31 AM
Quote from: "VioletCamicat"
Wow! Thank you very much for this explanation, Pan!
Really, it's cool to read it summarized like that and I didn't know about Visual Shock and Murbas really.
And I also didn't know about that Mana invented the term - I just guessed that MM was the band who pushed it more to the goth and Baroque style (I wouldn't say 15th Century - rather 17th and 18th ;)).

Was really great to read this! Again: Thank you! :D

Thank you! and my bad, I was thinking on Louis XV, got screwed up with dates XD

I'm gonna ask my best friend who is this huge MM fan if she happens to have any of those early magazines, if you look for interviews, Mana was the first one to use that term to describe his band.

Quote from: "Hollywood"

About the makeup and also the armor: have you guys looked into the possible (and in my mind, extremely likely) influence of the '80s Sunset Strip metal bands-- what is called "LA metal" in Japan or sometimes "hair metal" in other parts of the world-- on X's appearance?  For example, that armor that X used to wear, especially on the cover of the Orgasm EP, REALLY resembles some old Motley Crue and WASP costumes, and some of X's makeup also strongly resembles bands from that scene.  If you're interested I can try to find pics and stuff, some of the similarities are pretty funny.  There were other Japanese metal bands at the time who drew heavily from the Sunset Strip style too, though as far as I can tell, X was the only "visual" band to do so (personally I see X as being at least halfway lodged in the Japanese metal scene, rather than being purely a visual band).

Actually they did, remember I talked about Glam? well, some people say GLAM stands for Gay Los Angeles Metal, just to bug around, but makes some sense, because of what you say, their way of dressing. X did copy Glam bands, Black Sabbath, all of those things, and they had Punk influence as well, Yoshiki said his spiky hair came from that.

Funny how it all ends together at some point XD

P.S.: BTW, I screwed up again, I was thinking in 1000 stuff at the same time and I already corrected my post, the band is called Visual Scandal, not Visual Shock, I was thinking about X :lol:


Offline radicalblues

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Reply #38 on: April 16, 2008, 03:21:49 AM
I'd love to chit-chat here with you guys, but I'd rather finish the article to give you the whole thing.

Quote
About "visual" vs. "visual kei", I first found out about Japanese rock (including visual) in about 1996 or so, and at the time the English-language internet fan community was calling it "visual rock" or sometimes "visual shock". Or just "visual", yeah. I wish I could remember the first time I saw the term "visual kei", but I can't remember really. All I remember for sure is that it wasn't until years later-- I'd estimate around 1999-2000 or so, I suppose.


That's pretty darn interesting. I'm pending to check with a reliable source, but I also overheard that Mana invented the term "Visual Kei" in magazines, of course only retaking and modifying Visual from 80's.



Offline Sander

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Reply #39 on: April 16, 2008, 08:33:01 AM
Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote from: "Hypno"
Ummm not really... I believe there are many people who are fans of only 'j-music' mainly because of the language...

But if you prefer Japanese music because you like the sound of the Japanese language, then (but please correct me if I've got it wrong) you like only Japanese-language rock, not even Japanese rock in general-- right?  Since a lot of Japanese rock has English-language lyrics.  I ask because to me that's something a lot different than the more common "I like Japanese rock because it sounds NOTHING LIKE OTHER ROCK AT ALL AND IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND WAY BETTER BECAUSE IT'S MADE BY JAPANESE PEOPLE", etc.  I mean, if you just really like the sound of the language itself and that's something important to you-- hey, go for it!  My annoyance isn't with that, but with the kind of attitude I put in all caps just now. :P
Might be so, might not... As the Japanese SOUND different. The vocals I mean. Vocal chords built differently and that stuff. And they mostly sing in Engrish anyway :P

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Offline MiscastDice

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Reply #40 on: April 16, 2008, 08:54:53 AM
Quote from: "Hollywood"
I'm sick of the word "Jrock".

Is it just me?  Is anyone else sick of it too?

It's like creating a genre where there isn't one.  So-called "Jrock" bands have even less to do with each other than so-called "visual kei" bands do.

Just because a band is from Japan does NOT mean they sound even remotely like every other band from Japan.  How the hell did B'z and Malice Mizer end up, in some people's eyes, as part of the same musical genre??  Even as part of the same scene?

Hey, if your musical tastes are so varied that you really like L'Arc~en~Ciel AND Loudness AND B'z AND Malice Mizer AND An Cafe, then go for it.  Nothing wrong with liking a lot of different stuff.  But don't pretend these bands have anything in common!  And don't expect me to like some frilly frou-frou oshare band just because I like X!  ARGH!  "Japan" is a country, not a musical genre!

Yeah, so, I wanted to vent. :P  Anyone else feel like the word "Jrock" has got to go?



WORD. (Though I actually do like both X and hide and L'Arc and Hyde and Malice Mizer and BOOWY and Galneryus and Miyavi. Not because they're ZOMG JAPANESE but because all of them are kickass musicians)



Offline RoseOfPain

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Reply #41 on: April 16, 2008, 09:01:13 AM
Jep, I agree, though I must admit, I do use the term on some rare occasions XD
I also like Japanese bands, but not because they are Japanese, but because they (as stated above) kick ass!
+ I love the language ^^ for me it really adds something to the music :)

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Offline MillieQOF

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Reply #42 on: April 16, 2008, 11:48:20 AM
I've heard a lot of good things about the "real" visual kei lives (malice Mizer and Lareine), which have made me want to go see one very bad!
Hizaki Grace Project are the only band I know about that keeps up the tradition of making a dazzling visual stage show from what I've heard.



Offline Hollywood

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Reply #43 on: April 16, 2008, 07:26:40 PM
Quote from: "Radical Pan"
Actually they did, remember I talked about Glam? well, some people say GLAM stands for Gay Los Angeles Metal, just to bug around, but makes some sense, because of what you say, their way of dressing. X did copy Glam bands, Black Sabbath, all of those things, and they had Punk influence as well, Yoshiki said his spiky hair came from that.

Funny how it all ends together at some point XD

Ah, OK, when you said "glam" I thought you meant only the '70s stuff like David Bowie and T.Rex.  Those were influences too of course, but a lot of people seem to leave out the '80s LA glam metal and sleaze rock stuff-- mostly, I think, because a lot of "visual kei" fans hate those bands and don't want their precious X to be associated with them. :lol:  But I agree, they were definitely an influence on X's costumes, and also on X's makeup and "attitude".  I strongly suspect X's emphasis on sexual lyrics came from that scene too.  (Frankly, to me, early X was essentially just LA metal taken to a very drastic-- though logical-- extreme.)

And I totally agree about the punk influences.  Pata's mohawk was totally punk too, in fact everything he wore during the mohawk times was very punk as well.

Yeah, it does all end up together at points, doesn't it?  But to me that's how it always is, for individual bands and for music scenes in general-- nothing is truly 100% original, it's just a matter of combining different influences in new and interesting ways.

Quote from: "Hypno"
Might be so, might not... As the Japanese SOUND different. The vocals I mean. Vocal chords built differently and that stuff. And they mostly sing in Engrish anyway :P

Vocal chords built differently?  Do you have a link to a study or scientific article about this?  I've never heard of that, ever, and I seriously doubt it.  

They're not superhuman somehow, they sound different because they have an accent.  A Japanese person with zero accent doesn't sound any different from anyone else.  US-born Japanese who speak US English from birth sound no different from any other native US English speakers; there's no way I'd personally be able to tell on the phone whether a native US English speaker is ethnically Japanese or not.

And really, even Japan-born Japanese DON'T necessarily sing in Engrish. :P  There are a number Japanese vocalists, mostly in the hard rock and metal scenes, who are EXCELLENT in English. I mean guys like Kohshi Inaba (B'z), Masaki Yamada (EZO, some Loudness), Genki Hitomi (ex Vow Wow, now an English teacher), Yuichi Ikusawa (Twinzer, Rock'n Roll Standard Club Band)... etc.  They do have accents, but they're worlds away from being Engrish.  Check out the song "Real Thing Shakes" by B'z, excellent example of a Japanese guy not just singing, but emoting authentically in US English.

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Offline Sander

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Reply #44 on: April 16, 2008, 08:03:12 PM
Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote from: "Hypno"
Might be so, might not... As the Japanese SOUND different. The vocals I mean. Vocal chords built differently and that stuff. And they mostly sing in Engrish anyway :P

Vocal chords built differently?  Do you have a link to a study or scientific article about this?  I've never heard of that, ever, and I seriously doubt it.
No, I have ears... Well maybe some don't sound that different, but for me they mostly do... For example, there aren't many male vocalists in the western mainstream music who sing high notes like Toshi (there are some, probably, but not much I imagine)...

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Offline Sirimono

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Reply #45 on: April 16, 2008, 08:20:40 PM
Quote from: "Hypno"
Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote from: "Hypno"
Might be so, might not... As the Japanese SOUND different. The vocals I mean. Vocal chords built differently and that stuff. And they mostly sing in Engrish anyway :P

Vocal chords built differently?  Do you have a link to a study or scientific article about this?  I've never heard of that, ever, and I seriously doubt it.
No, I have ears... Well maybe some don't sound that different, but for me they mostly do... For example, there aren't many male vocalists in the western mainstream music who sing high notes like Toshi (there are some, probably, but not much I imagine)...


well my brother was always complaining about "my japanese musicians with their whiny voices"
and he was referring to hide, x, dir en grey, luna sea etc. etc. he just can't stand the male voices of japanese singers...

random input



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Reply #46 on: April 16, 2008, 08:25:59 PM
Mötley Crüe around somewhat between '82 and '84, I think:


X around... '86..?:

I think the ones who deny similarities are blind. :lol:
And it's of course no copy... just an influence. I still don't get why some people behave as if it was the worst ever, when you say that it wasn't a completely new invention. But what I've heard - some really seem to behave like this. :shock:

Quote from: "Hypno"
No, I have ears... Well maybe some don't sound that different, but for me they mostly do... For example, there aren't many male vocalists in the western mainstream music who sing high notes like Toshi (there are some, probably, but not much I imagine)...

Oh, and I think in the metal genre a lot of singers sing that high. Even higher. The singer of Iron Maiden is an example. And in the power metal scene it's pretty common to sing rather high as far as I know.

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #47 on: April 16, 2008, 09:24:28 PM
Quote from: "VioletCamicat"
I think the ones who deny similarities are blind. :lol:
And it's of course no copy... just an influence. I still don't get why some people behave as if it was the worst ever, when you say that it wasn't a completely new invention. But what I've heard - some really seem to behave like this. :shock:

EXACTLY the Motley Crue era (and X era) I was thinking of! :D  Great photos!  Maybe we should make some kind of "X's influences" thread in the general X section?  Those can get interesting; I think the "D.T.R's influences" thread is one of the most interesting threads in the D.T.R section.  And yeah, anyone who can't see the similarities is indeed blind, heheh.  I also don't understand what some people find offensive about saying a band was influenced by some other band or wasn't completely new, etc.  I mean, unless someone claims to be a fan of the first caveman who ever banged two rocks together-- because EVERYONE after that was influenced by SOMEONE. :P

Quote from: "VioletCamicat"
Quote from: "Hypno"
No, I have ears... Well maybe some don't sound that different, but for me they mostly do... For example, there aren't many male vocalists in the western mainstream music who sing high notes like Toshi (there are some, probably, but not much I imagine)...

Oh, and I think in the metal genre a lot of singers sing that high. Even higher. The singer of Iron Maiden is an example. And in the power metal scene it's pretty common to sing rather high as far as I know.
[/quote]
Actually I think there are more guys in the Western world who sound somewhat similar to Toshi than Japanese guys who do.  The only other one I can think of in Japan is Demon Kogure (Seikima II), while in the West... yeah, power metal guys, plus many of the LA metal bands had high singing too, though LA metal generally favored a kind of voice that was high but "greasier" than Toshi (hard to explain).

Early Toshi reminds me a lot of Rob Halford, both the high notes and the black leather.  Toshi is a bit higher though.

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Offline Sander

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Reply #48 on: April 16, 2008, 09:37:36 PM
Ok I'll shut up then -.-

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Reply #49 on: April 18, 2008, 08:16:54 PM
Regarding the term J-rock, I, as someone said before (way before, so I don't remember who, sorry ^^), use it almost exclusively for those who don't know anything about foreign music at all, to signify that I mainly listen to bands by Japanese artists. I agree it should not be classified as a "genre", although I do notice a certain remarkable "difference" between the Japanese bands I listen to and the English bands I listen to. If I'm speaking with someone who is aware that there is music made by people who don't speak English (don't laugh! most US people are really that sheltered!), then I would specify further. I just don't like to make things unnecessarily complicated for people who won't appreciate the nuances.

And about the connection with anime and manga... I am one of those who was introduced to X through the ending theme of the X anime, but I am definitely not a hardcore anime fan by any stretch of the imagination. I really only go to cons for the fun of dressing up as Jrock (here meaning explicitly Japan-born rock, as it would be silly to go to a con as, say, Marilyn Manson) performers and mingling with others who enjoy the Japanese culture and language as much as I do. I highly resent it when people assume that I love anime because I love Japanese rock, and also when they assume I love Japanese rock BECAUSE of anime, when really the two have no connection in my mind.

I also resent it when Japanese bands feel like they can only perform at anime-centered venues. That's the only thing I give the current Dir en grey kudos for: I saw them live in Portland, Oregon at an actual concert hall and it was spectacular! I think more bands should give that a try. (I'm glad X is, with the New York show.)

Thank you very much for the article, it was well-stated and a good overview. In the final, will there be a sources cited index of sorts? I would suggest that, to make it fully credible.

Re Motley Crue and X: two of my favorite bands of all time, and I am perfectly okay that they bear visual and musical similarities. I've been contemplating the connection for a while.  :lol:  Great pictures!! (I'm definitely a big glam/hair metal fan, hehe) I think it's silly when people are upset that X was influenced - they weren't making music in a void, after all!

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Offline leria83

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Reply #50 on: May 19, 2008, 10:08:08 PM
I mainly categorize some as J-rock if I'm organizing my ITunes. That way if my friends mess with my ipod, they're not listening to something they don't like. But I pretty much just say oh they're a Japanese band. And then throw in the "well they're kinda rock or punkish,etc". I personally hate labels period.



Offline Madjhatter

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Reply #51 on: July 02, 2008, 06:33:41 PM
I'm resurrecting this thread because over at the Jrockrevolution forums (guys I'm merely mentioning them. This is about what other people said (or lacked saying) on the thread.) anyway Jrock101 posted a question about bands outside of jrock meaning the bands that are rock and are from japan but don't have the 'jrock' tag.  What I found interesting is the lack of comments on it, other threads in that section have at least two pages of replies but this one has only a few replies. Maybe it might be because people don't know that you can be a rock band and be from Japan but not go under 'jrock' or maybe because *god forbid* there be bands out of japan that aren't 'visual' or 'jrock' and people turn away from it.  So far the only people that have posted are Jrock101 (who posted the question then had to clarify what was being asked), and 4 other people.  Now what I want to know is do you think that some fans of 'jrock' would turn away from bands from Japan that are rock but aren't considered 'jrock'? (I just want your guys opinions) I'll keep them in a jar

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Offline Sirimono

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Reply #52 on: July 02, 2008, 07:46:28 PM
Yes, I think there are many jrock fans who try to ignore the existence of japanese rock that doesn't fit the "jrock" tag.
For example Loudness, I've never seen anyone liking jrock actually talking about them (until i got here of course), but rather western people who don't give a shit about jrock...

That's at least what i've experienced. There are always exceptions of course (me, for example) but then there's always the question where does the jrock tag end and where does it start, depending on if you just call all rock from japan jrock, or if jrock is a certain type of japanese rock and pop groups...



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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #53 on: July 03, 2008, 05:47:18 PM
Quote from: "Sirimono"
depending on if you just call all rock from japan jrock, or if jrock is a certain type of japanese rock and pop groups...

It used to be used in the first sense, and as far as I can tell was never used in the second sense until JRR started using the word "Jrock" to promote a roster of exclusively visual kei bands.

OK, here I go with one of those annoying "back in the day" stories, Storytime with Uncle Hollywood again. :P  Back in 1996 when dinosaurs walked teh internets, I discovered my first Japanese rock band (Luna Sea), went online to get more info about them, and from there went on to find X and B'z and whoever else.  Back then:

1. Jpop was by far the most popular form of Japanese music online.  You had to wade through the pop sites (SMAP, V6, MAX, Namie Amuro, whatever) to get to the rock.
2. Everything that was "harder" than boy bands was usually called Jrock.  Basically, bands where they play rock instruments rather than sing and dance.  The pop-rock bands, like Glay, L'Arc, and (at the time) B'z were alternately called Jpop or Jrock.  Let me make this really clear, ANY rock from Japan was called Jrock at the time.
3. "Normal" Jrock was normal.  The non-visual or used-to-be-visual-but-not-anymore were WAY more popular than the visual bands.  Visual kei, which at the time was called "visual rock" or "visual shock", was a niche genre for freaks and enthusiasts.  (Much like it is and always has been in Japan.)
4. Other than Luna Sea, X Japan, Kuroyume, and Penicillin, visual rock was fucking hard to find information about, let alone actually buy.  What few online stores there were, private sellers included, sold only Jpop and non-visual Jrock.  If you wanted visual, you either had to know someone in Japan, or else you had to use a very mysterious and arcane fax process to order from Third Stage, who did not have a web site at the time.  If you actually succeeded in ordering something from Third Stage, you were the coolest person ever, or at least the coolest person that week on inertia's visual BBS.

Over the years the visual stuff gradually gained popularity.  Skip ahead about 10 years, and all of a sudden Jrock Revolution appears and declares themselves the be-all-end-all of all things visual and "Jrock".  They create a surge of new visual kei fans, who naturally take everything JRR says as truth.  It's not the fans' fault really, after all, JRR presents themselves as the ultimate authority and the new fans don't know any better than to simply accept that.  I wouldn't be surprised if many of JRR's employees are in fact themselves too "young" in the scene to understand its history, and the older fans who have been around longer unfortunately seem to see no need to correct any of their misconceptions.

Jrock 101 is pretty scary since a lot of what they present is poorly researched, leaves out some important points, or is simply wrong.  To use a very trivial example that still illustrates the problem pretty well, I remember a Jrock 101 topic about why no Japanese rock musicians ever have green hair.  The very existence of that topic amused me, but anyway, it's simply incorrect-- INA, the guy in By-Sexual, the guy in Color, etc., all had green hair.  There was another topic about how Japanese rock musicians never do drugs and never die of overdose, or something like that, which left out Hisashi Imai's LSD arrest and Kazuki's (Raphael) fatal overdose on sedatives.

Anyway, what this all comes back to is that JRR, a source of much misinformation and little historical perspective, is almost certainly where this notion of "not all Japanese rock is Jrock" originated.  Because they call themselves "Jrock" but all the bands they promote are visual.  And understandably from a marketing perspective, they seem to let this misconception flourish, probably because it benefits their brand if people associate the currently-popular visual stuff with the word "Jrock" in the name of their company.

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Offline Madjhatter

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Reply #54 on: July 03, 2008, 08:35:50 PM
*is taking all this in*  points well made, Uncle Hollywood :P
alot of this stuff I didn't know and I've only been into japanese music for over a year so I'm still noobish on some of the stuff but oddly enough alot of things mentioned don't suprise me. I didn't know that it was all called 'jrock' once, goes to show you how somethings are taken and warped into something else because now most of the bands you hear about with that 'jrock' tag now are 'visual/oshare/cosplay' -kei.

however, I did know about the musicians with green hair but not the drugs. About the drug thing and how Japanese musicians never do drugs- I betcha anything thats bullshit. I bet many musicians, whether visual or not, have at least tried somthing. Being Japanese doesn't mean they haven't tried the 'sex, drugs and rock n roll' thing. Sure its not as open in japan as say america (example: NOFX has a show on Fuse about them touring and they go to Singapore, which is a country you really shouldn't do drugs in and they bought something and snorted it in front of the camera. Another is Avenged Sevenfold's drummer The Rev talking in an interview about how he snorts coke with rolled up $1s and hasn't caught hepatitis so far) but I bet it happens, it happens everywhere regardless of the public image, things have happened behind the curtains.
Thats something else that bugs me, rock n roll has always kinda had a little dirt to it, there was something unclean and filthy about it, which was cool actually. But I've seen in some cases, 'jrock' being one of them, where some try to make it seem cleaner, like those musicians are little angels who haven't done anything bad in terms of experimented with drugs or had one night stands or anything like that.  (no its not only japanese musicians or 'jrock' but I'm trying to stay on topic-ish here)

I dunno, something to note is some of the fans, especially on JRR are in fact, really young teenagers who don't know much about that side yet. Again, that was also another topic that was barely discussed.

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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #55 on: July 03, 2008, 09:21:02 PM
Quote from: "Madjhatter"
I didn't know that it was all called 'jrock' once, goes to show you how somethings are taken and warped into something else because now most of the bands you hear about with that 'jrock' tag now are 'visual/oshare/cosplay' -kei.

I'm actually really curious to hear accounts from anyone else who's known about "Jrock" a while, because while I remember all this stuff vividly myself, ultimately I'm just one guy speaking from personal experience and would really like to know if others' experiences were the same or not.

And of course everyone was a noob once, it's no big deal, but it's so interesting/weird for me to see how people who are discovering Japanese bands for the first time are coming into such a WAY different scene.  (Then again, it would be even weirder if ten years had gone by and things HADN'T changed.)

And the drugs post, if I remember correctly it was titled something that didn't have to do with drugs-- something about death or life expectancy or something.  Anyway I TOTALLY agree with everything you just said, I also have a really hard time imagining that drug use is as rare among Japanese musicians as people make it out to be.  And not hearing about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen-- what with the harsh drug laws over there, I imagine that anyone who IS using is a lot more careful and less open about it (i.e. we're less likely to know about it).  I'm not sure whether it's as widespread in Japan as it is in the West or not, but I'm entirely convinced that everything is not as squeaky-clean as a lot of people claim.

Quote from: "Madjhatter"
Thats something else that bugs me, rock n roll has always kinda had a little dirt to it, there was something unclean and filthy about it, which was cool actually. But I've seen in some cases, 'jrock' being one of them, where some try to make it seem cleaner, like those musicians are little angels who haven't done anything bad in terms of experimented with drugs or had one night stands or anything like that.  (no its not only japanese musicians or 'jrock' but I'm trying to stay on topic-ish here)

I dunno, something to note is some of the fans, especially on JRR are in fact, really young teenagers who don't know much about that side yet. Again, that was also another topic that was barely discussed.

Oh man, this is SO true!  (And I do think there's a trend in general of castrating rock into being "family-friendly"-- Sex Pistols baby clothes, anyone?-- but yeah, for the topic's sake I'll stick to the "Jrock" aspect of that too.)  And in the case of Japanese rock, since (for better or worse) a lot of the fan culture surrounding it seems to emanate from JRR nowadays, I think it goes back to JRR being careful with their bottom line.  Like you said, there are a lot of young teens on that site and I bet JRR doesn't want to risk alienating them (or more specifically, their parents) and losing their business, since they've somehow become such a major demographic.

I don't honestly know if that's good business or not, though, since by attempting to "clean up" rock'n'roll :roll: and appeal to that demographic, they're also alienating another section of their potential customer base-- people like us, who LIKE that "dirt" and don't want to see it washed off.  (Not that you can wash it off too well anyway: it's still there, whether JRR and the like want to admit to it or not.)

And personally?  I can't stand that kind of pandering to the lowest (or least-offensive) common denominator.  If parents don't want their kids listening to "bad" stuff, then rather than expect JRR to put lipstick on all the pigs, they should tell their kids to get out of the pigsty.  (Some of us like our pigsties nasty, thank you!)

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Offline Kim Kyung Ho

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Reply #56 on: August 04, 2008, 12:21:11 PM
Early Toshi reminds me a lot of Rob Halford, both the high notes and the black leather.  Toshi is a bit higher though.

I hear what you are saying about the more 'greasy' vocals. Most of the old hair metal band vocalists could have been all part of some sort of super band. The likes of Skid Row, Bon Jovi, Stryper, etc could have all been the same person. The only reason that them type of vocals don't exist anymore in europe and the US, is because music moved on in a different way than it did in asia. In asia, their music moved on from glam metal to an extent, whilst western music is derivertive of the 'Grunge movement' (a phase where people stopped being musical and just made heavy guitar noise)

Who has ever heard of Steelheart in europe or the US really. Not many people, but they went to asia and topped the charts. In the west, people can make money and records simply by talking and a basic beat that's so-called 'catchy', yay...go Rihanna... :\

Not enough Steve Perry's or Geoff Tate's in the mainstream anymore. You have to look very hard for people like that now...and frankly I just don't have the time! haha. The higher frequency of higher pitched vocalists in asia could just be placed as a cultural phernomena.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 12:26:37 PM by Kim Kyung Ho »



Offline Envenom

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Reply #57 on: August 04, 2008, 03:24:08 PM
Not enough Steve Perry's or Geoff Tate's in the mainstream anymore. You have to look very hard for people like that now...and frankly I just don't have the time! haha. The higher frequency of higher pitched vocalists in asia could just be placed as a cultural phernomena.
Well, to tell you the truth, Journey's new vocalist sounds A LOT like Steve Perry and they're still a pretty popular band (their new album is killer by the way!). And to me it would sound weird to have some pretty boy pop band with Geoff Tate doing his thing (early 80s Tate that is, I lost track of Queensryche after Empire).

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Offline Kim Kyung Ho

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Reply #58 on: August 05, 2008, 12:36:01 AM
Not enough Steve Perry's or Geoff Tate's in the mainstream anymore. You have to look very hard for people like that now...and frankly I just don't have the time! haha. The higher frequency of higher pitched vocalists in asia could just be placed as a cultural phernomena.
Well, to tell you the truth, Journey's new vocalist sounds A LOT like Steve Perry and they're still a pretty popular band (their new album is killer by the way!). And to me it would sound weird to have some pretty boy pop band with Geoff Tate doing his thing (early 80s Tate that is, I lost track of Queensryche after Empire).

I'm hardly suggesting a Geoff Tate style vocalist as part of 'Take That'. It would just be nice if I could hear anything that sounds vaguely different from the typical manufactured sound, and that actually gets some sort of media coverage. The popular sound today either means you have to sound very dull and depressive (this whole new-age indie movement) or hip hop. I'm not asking for it to be obliterated from life just because it's just not my thing. However I think they need to market their more rock-orientated sound. Otherwise alot of young people are in my opinon missing out alot.

I had no idea Journey was still making music, and the last I heard, they got an old Malmsteen vocalist to cover Perry for live performances. But that shows you that today, you can't just hear a song that you have a chance of liking (if you're less than partial to today's pop). You've got to go dashing through wikipedia and find what they've released (the disadvantage of this is that you've had to of heard of the band already). So for somebody like myself who works full time, comes home pretty tired and doesn't want to particularily have to scower the internet in the desperation of hearing a new sound...Oh well. At least I know Amy Winehouse is in rehab and hopefully having surgury to have her vocal chords removed! ^_^

Mmmm...I sound all serious now, I didn't mean for it to rant on so long! haha.




Offline Aerce

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Reply #59 on: August 18, 2008, 04:37:25 AM
Personally I listen to jrock and non jrock bands.. I don't care if it's japanese or not.. it has to be good.

Like.. Satriani, Jimi Hendrix, Dream Theater, Pink Floyd etc.

Also I do listen to classical music from time to time and radio while I get ultimately bored.

That's just me.  ; 8)