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X Arguments On YouTube

YusamiUne · 7408

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Offline YusamiUne

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on: December 12, 2007, 11:02:51 PM
Oddly enough the most argued X topic I see is the argument people make that "X was NEVER a VK band".

Now, I can understand not wanting to clump them into the VK we all know and mostly dislike today, but the fact is that they were a VK band until...About 93-ish? That sound good?

And even now, look at them together. They are starting towards that path once more if they stay together or at least Yoshiki and Heath are and with other old school and new school VK artists.

Has anyone run into this anywhere else?

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Offline YusamiUne

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Reply #1 on: December 13, 2007, 12:08:16 AM
How can you say that though? Even Yoshiki has stated he didn't want to see the genre he helped bring forward die out. I don't think he was talking about glam.

Not to mention the band's subtitle for many years and the names of their VCDs/LDs/DVDs, Visual Shock. My Japanese is rusty but I believe kei equates to shock in some form or context.

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Offline YusamiUne

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Reply #2 on: December 13, 2007, 12:26:03 AM
o___o My friend asked me a disturbing question as to the size on Yoshiki's penis once...I for one cannot imagine the man as anything other than an asexual andro but she...Thinks he is hot.

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Offline Sander

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Reply #3 on: December 13, 2007, 07:30:13 AM
X wasn't VK, they were the forerunners of VK... I think. Other VK bands took after them...

I think....

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Offline Arucard

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Reply #4 on: December 13, 2007, 10:20:06 AM
In MY opinion X was a visual kei band, but I really don't care about that... I think it's very annoying when people start classifying bands by their looks, and not the way they sound...

img]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e396/Erocard/Clipboard01-4.jpg[/img]


Offline YusamiUne

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Reply #5 on: December 13, 2007, 01:57:57 PM
Visual Kei doesn't have a sound, which to me that is what makes the genre so great.

Well...RIGHT NOW there is a sound. That Luna Sea-ish poppy sound (I like Luna Sea, I don't like what they did to their sound).

I remember a friend of mine who, at the time, was the only other VK fan I knew considered the bassline of some songs the only musical connection visual kei bands had.

I understand your issues with labels though =o

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Offline Keppikeksi

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Reply #6 on: December 13, 2007, 02:19:46 PM
No.... no... NO!!! not THIS conversation AGAIN...!

X was VK. But not in the way we know Visual Kei today.

Quote from: "Hypno"
X wasn't VK, they were the forerunners of VK... I think. Other VK bands took after them...

I think....


But if X wasn't VK, how could other VK bands have followed their example? X was one founders of VK but since Visual Kei today means something else than it used to mean people tend to think X was just "somewhat KISS copying hardrock band whose members wanted to use make-up and such".

So I think that there's no way people can say X wasn't a part of VK scene. They were and they were a VK band. But not in the way we know Visual Kei today.

EDIT:
The reason why people say X wasn't VK is that they look different than modern Visual Kei bands do. Their sound wasn't as punk or aggressive as modern VK bands' sound is.

X WAS VK! In the same way Black Sabbath used represent the darkest and most aggressive part of heavy metal there was. Are still that according to modern standards or compared to e.g. Cannibal Corpse? Maybe not. But that doesn't change what they used to be.

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Offline darkcat21

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Reply #7 on: December 13, 2007, 03:21:23 PM
Fuck, I'm fed up with this.

X WASN'T VISUAL KEI

X JAPAN (or X) was Visual, that's it, only Visual, created by bands like Visual Scandal, Murbas, etc. Later some bands (especially Yokosuka Saber Tiger) changed a bit the clothes, but it was still the same VISUAL. X was just the band that put the Visual into the mainstream with large venues concerts. And in 1993/1994 when X changed the style, the other VISUAL bands made the same as X and Visual dissapeared. Ok, maybe X had its own "style" inside Visual, but that was not Visual kei.

But some months laters, a guy called Mana noticed that Visual could still do something and created Visual Kei (he played with words it means both "Visual Style" and "from Visual"), he added some gothic clothes and created Visual Kei. He has even said in some interviews that he created Visual Kei, after being influenced by X Japan Visual looks.

Let's summarize... Visual Kei was created in 1994, so how could X be Visual kei? Just compare Malice Mizer looks and X Japan looks, I can se millions of differences.

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Offline YusamiUne

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Reply #8 on: December 13, 2007, 03:30:13 PM
Where are you getting your info?

Even if that was true what about Luna Sea, Buck Tick and Zi:Kill? All three bands who came about and into the mainstream BEFORE Malice Mizer and all three (with the exception being Buck Tick but I think that ones up for par really) are recognized as VK.

Visual Kei doesn't have a specific look. It was meant to shock and add visuals to the band's music.

That's just being ignorant of an entire genre of music my friend.

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Offline YusamiUne

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Reply #9 on: December 13, 2007, 03:32:30 PM
Also, strait from Wikipedia...

"Visual Kei emerged in the late 1980s, pioneered by the band X Japan. [5], along with others such as D'erlanger and Color, who are regarded as influencing the fashion and music associated with Visual Kei bands.[20] X Japan's drummer Yoshiki Hayashi used the term to describe the band's slogan "Psychedelic Violence Crime of Visual Shock".

Color vocalist "Dynamite Tommy" formed his record company Free-Will in 1986, which has been a major contributor in spreading modern Visual Kei outside Japan.[20]

In 1992, X Japan launched an attempt to enter the European and American markets, but it would take another 8 years until popularity and awareness of Visual Kei bands would extend worldwide. [6]

In the mid 1990s, Visual Kei received an increase in popularity throughout Japan, when album sales from Visual Kei bands started to reach record numbers. The most notable bands to achieve success during this period included, X Japan, Glay, Luna Sea, and L'Arc-en-Ciel, however a drastic change in their appearance accompanied their success.[20]

During the same period, bands such as Kuroyume, Malice Mizer, and Penicillin, gained mainstream awareness, although they were not as commercially successful.[20]

By 1999, mainstream popularity in Visual Kei was declining, X Japan had disbanded, and the death of lead guitarist Hideto Matsumoto in 1998 had denied fans a possible reunion. It wasn't long before Luna Sea decided to disband in the year 2000, and L'Arc-en-Ciel went on a hiatus the same year.[20]

In 2007 the genre has been revitalized, as Luna sea announced they would perform a one-off performance, and X Japan announced they would reunite. With these developments, Visual kei bands enjoyed a boost in public awareness, described by the media as "Neo-Visual Kei". "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_Kei

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Offline darkcat21

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Reply #10 on: December 13, 2007, 03:47:09 PM
Well, I'm an active member on Wikipedia, and that's by far one of the poor articles on the whole Wikipedia. 90% of the info comes from this New York Times article, and really, the writter has the same knowledge of X Japan as me of Statistical thermodynamics. Also... L'Arc en Ciel Visual kei? Visual kei popularity declining in 1999? Color Visual Kei? "Psychedelic Violence Crime of Visual Shock", what the hell is this? The word "violence" and "visual" were used by X even in 1984...

My "sources", mostly are people who really know about X.
(http://www.xradicaldreamers.net/xjapan/definiciones.htm)
Even some info come from Hisashi Takai....

And Visual Kei and Visual are not a musical style, my friend  :wink:

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Offline YusamiUne

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Reply #11 on: December 13, 2007, 04:01:05 PM
I would say the article is correct. VK did decline post 1997 and because of the broad ranges of visuals Visual Kei can have it's more than possible (because many bands have done this) that L'arc en Ciel were at one point defined as VK.

Color I would give a definite yes to...Their music kinda sucked though...

Let's not forget the comic documentary by Dynamite Tommy on visual kei, something he himself took part in.

And again I cite Yoshiki himself referring to Visual Kei as something he had a part in bringing about and didn't want to see it die out.

=o Next you'll be telling me Moi Dix Mois were the forerunners of VK in 2003 X<

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Offline Arucard

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Reply #12 on: December 13, 2007, 08:10:14 PM
Quote from: "darkcat21"
And Visual Kei and Visual are not a musical style, my friend  :wink:


  8)

img]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e396/Erocard/Clipboard01-4.jpg[/img]


Offline Sander

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Reply #13 on: December 13, 2007, 09:03:53 PM
I have read that article and it's CRAP!

And Yoshiki telling that "Visual Kei as something he had a part in bringing about and didn't want to see it die out" matches with dc21 also... I mean that he had a part in bringing about doesn't mean X had to be a VK band.

And could anyone please translate, what the Japanese wiki says about VK?

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Offline visualrocker69

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Reply #14 on: December 14, 2007, 02:54:54 AM
I'm sorry, but this debate is just idiotic. You people are arguing over semantics, guided by nothing more than inconsistent terms and arbitrary definitions.

Visual, visual kei, glam, gothic... who the hell are you people to draw the line, anyway?

What is the fundamental truth to visual kei? An emphasis on VISUALS - ie, hair, makeup, clothes, nails, vivid pv's, etc. That IS the common denominator. Period. END OF DISCUSSION.

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Offline Mitsuko

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Reply #15 on: December 18, 2007, 01:16:34 AM
Quote from: "visualrocker69"
I'm sorry, but this debate is just idiotic. You people are arguing over semantics, guided by nothing more than inconsistent terms and arbitrary definitions.

Visual, visual kei, glam, gothic... who the hell are you people to draw the line, anyway?

What is the fundamental truth to visual kei? An emphasis on VISUALS - ie, hair, makeup, clothes, nails, vivid pv's, etc. That IS the common denominator. Period. END OF DISCUSSION.


I love you.  :D

I agree completely.

As for my own two cents, I say that while X doesn't fit the STEREOTYPE of Visual Kei we have today - early Dir en grey, Phantasmagoria, Malice Mizer, Versailles etc - they are certainly a visual band, and in my opinion "visual" and "visual kei" are basically two ways of saying the same thing. Emphasis on visual - especially visual SHOCK.

It depends, then, on one's definition of VK. If you're using the looser and more accurate definition of VK, then X couldn't be anything but.

If you're using the current cookie-cutter manifestation of VK, then of course they aren't.

Because we are using two different definitions, this argument is entirely pointless and will NEVER be resolved.  :roll:

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Offline visualrocker69

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Reply #16 on: December 18, 2007, 08:03:34 AM
Quote from: "Mitsuko"
If you're using the current cookie-cutter manifestation of VK, then of course they aren't.


However, as you said, this is less accurate. It's every bit as misguided as calling people who wear black nail polish and pentagrams "goths" without understanding anything about the gothic subculture and its origins.

Quote from: "darkcat21"
Fuck, I'm fed up with this.

X WASN'T VISUAL KEI

X JAPAN (or X) was Visual, that's it, only Visual, created by bands like Visual Scandal, Murbas, etc. Later some bands (especially Yokosuka Saber Tiger) changed a bit the clothes, but it was still the same VISUAL. X was just the band that put the Visual into the mainstream with large venues concerts. And in 1993/1994 when X changed the style, the other VISUAL bands made the same as X and Visual dissapeared. Ok, maybe X had its own "style" inside Visual, but that was not Visual kei.

But some months laters, a guy called Mana noticed that Visual could still do something and created Visual Kei (he played with words it means both "Visual Style" and "from Visual"), he added some gothic clothes and created Visual Kei. He has even said in some interviews that he created Visual Kei, after being influenced by X Japan Visual looks.

Let's summarize... Visual Kei was created in 1994, so how could X be Visual kei? Just compare Malice Mizer looks and X Japan looks, I can se millions of differences.


It's also ludicruous to propose that you can take various deviations of the Japanese visual rock movement liiiiike, for example, Malice Mizer (Victorian gothic), Dir en Grey (Industrial...close enough, anyway), and Psycho le Cemu ("WTF O.o;;;" branch of vk? XD) and just clump these all together into one label, visual kei. So where does everyone else fit in?

You say "Visual kei was created in 1994" by Mana? So what are Luna Sea, Kuroyume, Penicillin, L'arc en Ciel and their peers that came BEFORE Malice Mizer? Are they not visual?

I think I recall someone saying L'arc were never visual? Well that's just damn inaccurate! They utilized the elements (makeup, nail polish, glamorous clothes, effeminate appearence) juuuust as much as their peers in the visual scene. I guess you (whoever made that claim) would say that Dir en Grey were never visual either... since they claimed (during the Kisou era) that they never were  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

kenchan [松長健人 / 서켄지]


Offline BizKiTRoAcH

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Reply #17 on: December 22, 2007, 10:03:02 PM
I've said it before and i'll say it again

Visual = Visual Kei
Visual Kei = Visual

Its the SAME FUCKING THING.

Almost as stupid as saying a "Goth" style is different to a "Gothic" style.



Offline Menacia

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Reply #18 on: December 22, 2007, 10:25:39 PM
Quote from: "BizKiTRoAcH"
I've said it before and i'll say it again

Visual = Visual Kei
Visual Kei = Visual

Its the SAME FUCKING THING.

Almost as stupid as saying a "Goth" style is different to a "Gothic" style.


Agreed. Thanks for putting it that simple. ^_^

in fact, if one translates Visual Kei into english, the word kei means nothing more than "form". So Visual Key = Visual Form and thats Visual :D



Offline Uncontrol

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Reply #19 on: December 23, 2007, 10:48:41 PM
It's part of their tag line, I don't see what the big debate is about.

I mean, who cares? It's not like they're all show, like some VK bands are, they actually have substance to their music. Can't say I actually like the Dir en Grey road they're going down now though. <_<



Offline Cruor

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Reply #20 on: January 25, 2008, 02:22:22 AM
Guess what guys



































































They are still Visual Kei

lmao

seriously though, if they werent a visual kei band why did people had the idea of them being one? I say Bands after X Japan were inspired by their visuals and some how people started to think those bands are the first visual kei..

 It's almost like people are ashamed for X Japan being a Visual Kei band? If thats the case what are they doing wrong?

Anyway I really dont care .... You guys can keep going lol

url=http://www.last.fm/user/SuYen/?chartstyle=listen] [/url]


Offline Sander

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Reply #21 on: January 25, 2008, 07:01:46 AM
I say, until there is a definition for Visual Kei, accepted by everyone, it really doesn't matter...

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