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Bird's nest - Spring 2009

darkcat21 · 18139

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Offline alex

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Reply #30 on: December 21, 2008, 10:58:04 PM
You're missing the point. What does any of this have to do with X Japan? X Japan is a band, they play music - they don't stand for the Japanese political system or endorse the things that went on several generations ago. This has nothing to do with X Japan, other than the fact that the members are Japanese.

Yoshiki, Pata, Heath and Toshi have NO responsibility for what went on several generations ago nor do they stand for it. If the Chinese government wants to make them a political scape-goat on account of their nationality then they are doing so illegitamately and for reasons which are close to impeding on human rights.

China is one of the most powerful economic countries in the world, this makes them developed. What their government chooses to do with the money is their problem.

Then please, Beauty/Broken, enlighten us. Tell us how China should deal with these issues WITHOUT unfairly affecting Japanese citizens in any way? Do you think China should target Japanese government officials? No, of course not. Every possible realistic action ultimately affects Japanese citizens in some way. So yes, sadly the people of a country has to pay the price for their government's actions/policies. That's just how things work, how do you reach out to a government without affecting their people? Japan has already showed that they aren't gonna do anything about the issue unless they have to.

Also, economical strength does not equal a developed country. China's whole economical strength relies on and is still built up on labour which has no other choice but to be exploited. Does that sound like a developed economy to you? China is still a developing country.



Offline Beauty/Broken

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Reply #31 on: December 22, 2008, 12:30:20 AM
Then please, Beauty/Broken, enlighten us. Tell us how China should deal with these issues WITHOUT unfairly affecting Japanese citizens in any way? Do you think China should target Japanese government officials? No, of course not. Every possible realistic action ultimately affects Japanese citizens in some way. So yes, sadly the people of a country has to pay the price for their government's actions/policies. That's just how things work, how do you reach out to a government without affecting their people? Japan has already showed that they aren't gonna do anything about the issue unless they have to.

Why does it matter?

What happened 60 years ago matters not in the world of today - we should be past that, looking for ways to move forward. Why should China need to harbour such a grudge against the Japanese civilians? Why do the ancestors of the Japanese war-time people have to pay the price for decisions made before they were even born? You're only seing things one dimensionally, you are making it sound like these are pressing issues that NEED to be resolved. How exactly are they going to be fixed? Are the Japanese citizens expected to grovell eternally at the feet of the Chinese? Do they want the Japanese to make a time machine and go back in time to fix the mistakes that made? This situation is extremely unreasonable and can constitute as nothing more than PETTY nationalism - and that makes me sick, if you can identify with it then go you, but to me this is nothing more than a petty grudge against a group of people who don't deserve such prejudice against their ethnicity.

All I can say is that whatever anger the Chinese have against the Japanese after all this time should not be directed at a group of non-political rock musicians. If you really think that refusing X Japan permission to play in the Beijing National Stadium is some sort of deep political statement and anything other than a crude piece of prejudice I really do doubt your capacity to even be involved in this debate.



Offline oreocookies

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Reply #32 on: December 22, 2008, 12:40:27 AM
are any of you guys Chinese/ Japanese? Im just curious.



Offline Pocku

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Reply #33 on: December 22, 2008, 02:47:29 AM
Why does it matter?

What happened 60 years ago matters not in the world of today - we should be past that, looking for

ways to move forward. Why should China need to harbour such a grudge against the Japanese

civilians? Why do the ancestors of the Japanese war-time people have to pay the price for decisions

made before they were even born? You're only seing things one dimensionally, you are making it

sound like these are pressing issues that NEED to be resolved. How exactly are they going to be

fixed? Are the Japanese citizens expected to grovell eternally at the feet of the Chinese? Do they

want the Japanese to make a time machine and go back in time to fix the mistakes that made? This

situation is extremely unreasonable and can constitute as nothing more than PETTY nationalism - and

that makes me sick, if you can identify with it then go you, but to me this is nothing more than a

petty grudge against a group of people who don't deserve such prejudice against their ethnicity.

All I can say is that whatever anger the Chinese have against the Japanese after all this time

should not be directed at a group of non-political rock musicians. If you really think that

refusing X Japan permission to play in the Beijing National Stadium is some sort of deep political

statement and anything other than a crude piece of prejudice I really do doubt your capacity to

even be involved in this debate.

What price does X Japan have to pay because of their ancestors? Um, play at another venue IN China? Oh no, what a heavy price to pay! Shame on the Chinese!  :P

And knock it off with the whole Japanese begging for forgiveness thing. No one's expecting them or asking them to, not even the Chinese.

Seriously, you're making this sound a lot worse than it actually is. No one is saying the Japanese deserves to be hated nor is anyone saying the Chinese should hate them. And you know what? You're making it sound like every single person in China hates the Japanese and it's giving X Japan such a hard time, which is not true.

First off, it doesn't matter whether a Japanese band or an American band wants to play in Bird's nest, ANY foreign bands can't play there YET because they want a Chinese artist to perform there first. If a Chinese artist had performed there already, there probably won't be this problem. And it's not like China's banning every single Japanese from performing within its state. X Japan is allowed to perform in China anytime and anywhere but Bird's nest because of he reason stated above. Heck, you're right, there's no deep political statement behind this whatsoever.

Second of all, why do you think X Japan even wants to perform in China? Because there's a fanbase in there that's big enough to be lucrative. I'm sure there a lot of people in China who likes Japanese idols, fashion, etc. and aren't the grudge-holding Japanese haters you're making them out to be. Heck, there are even some Japanese-(mainland)Chinese collaborations between artists that were well-recieved (note that the performance was performed in China). It's only a group of people within a huge population who are showing prejudice yet it sounds like to me you're associating the Chinese government's decision with its entire population (but didn't you just say people has no right to associate government decisions with a specific group of people?).

If X Japan really do love their fans in China, they should just play at another venue as the odds are against them in playing in Bird's nest.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 06:03:24 AM by Pocku »



Offline alex

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Reply #34 on: December 22, 2008, 04:06:36 AM
What happened 60 years ago matters not in the world of today - we should be past that, looking for ways to move forward. Why should China need to harbour such a grudge against the Japanese civilians? Why do the ancestors of the Japanese war-time people have to pay the price for decisions made before they were even born?

Sure, why don't you head over to South Korea and explain that to the old women who were raped continously for years in the Imperial Japanese Army brothels. You can find some of them protesting outside the Japanese embassy in Seoul every Wednesday. Keep in mind that they didn't receive proper recognition (or compensation for that matter).

You know, many victims - at least of those that didn't get killed during the imperial days - are still alive. From the victims that are dead, many of their children are alive. Also, many of the soldiers who committed these crimes are still alive. So really, how do we move on? Sir, that ball lies in the hands of the Japanese government. If Japan wants Asia to move on they should just recognize what truly happened for the good of all Asia. In order to learn from history we need to study it. Believe me when I say it surely works better than censorship or even denial.

You're only seing things one dimensionally, you are making it sound like these are pressing issues that NEED to be resolved. How exactly are they going to be fixed? Are the Japanese citizens expected to grovell eternally at the feet of the Chinese? Do they want the Japanese to make a time machine and go back in time to fix the mistakes that made? This situation is extremely unreasonable and can constitute as nothing more than PETTY nationalism - and that makes me sick, if you can identify with it then go you, but to me this is nothing more than a petty grudge against a group of people who don't deserve such prejudice against their ethnicity.

They ARE pressing issues that NEED to be resolved. This is a constantly returning topic in East Asian politics. Time machine? I think something more realistic would be - guess what? - truthful acknowledgement of the past.

I do not support China's actions. I don't like the methods of neither China nor Japan, but, I was hoping I could help you should gain an understanding to why it looks like it does. It's simply not fair to blame the Chinese like you do. You are very focused on what the Chinese government is doing wrong in this matter but you don't say anything about the Japanese one.

Why does it matter?

All I can say is that whatever anger the Chinese have against the Japanese after all this time should not be directed at a group of non-political rock musicians. If you really think that refusing X Japan permission to play in the Beijing National Stadium is some sort of deep political statement and anything other than a crude piece of prejudice I really do doubt your capacity to even be involved in this debate.

Deep political statement? Not really, it's quite a simple one. They do not want a Japanese band making the first music performance at Beijing National Stadium. Remember, what is Yoshiki's band's name? 'X Japan' making the first musical performance in 'Beijing National Stadium'. How can it not appear as symbolic to some? They still have the choice to perform somewhere else.

I also find it a bit annoying how you keep mentioning how I/we don't deserve to take place in this debate unless I/we share your opinion. Let me remind you of what you wrote in an earlier post:

if you think that the Chinese population have ANY right to feel upset at the fact that a group of post-war Japanese musicians want to play a concert in their national stadium on the grounds that they are Japanese you are an absolute moron and you don't deserve to have a say in the discussion.

Don't be so stupid.

The Chinese have (according to me) every right in the world to feel upset about such a fact. With free speech comes freedom of opinion. So, if I am a supporter of free speech, I am an absolute moron? What kind of an elitist are you?

are any of you guys Chinese/ Japanese? Im just curious.

No, I'm Swedish, both by nationality and ethnicity. I did however travel China, Japan and South Korea a few times.



Offline MisterEN

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Reply #35 on: December 22, 2008, 04:12:45 AM
people seem to be overcomplicating the issues with personal opinions and large parading paragraphs, so I'll simply state the situation:

The People's Republic of China (Like all other communist nations) instill a certain degree of propaganda and nationalism into their citizens.

Being that the Bird's Nest is an iconic symbol of the "emergence of China onto the world stage" that was mainly financed by the Chinese Government it is most probable to conclude that the Bird's Nest will also be utilized to instill a degree of propaganda and nationalism into it's citizens.

The question the Chinese cultural office or whoever the fuck rents the damn stadium has to ask when considering the venue is infact (You guessed it): Will the act instill a degree of propaganda and nationalism into it's citizens?

I doubt this is a racism or political issue, china would be just as apathetic to a taiwanese band or even a north korean band as it is towards X. The simple fact is that the Bird's Nest probably won't be open to foreign acts for a long time. I would be very surprised if X ever preforms there.



Offline alex

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Reply #36 on: December 22, 2008, 04:41:14 AM
Makes sense. However, the quote "A Beijing Culture office official said that they will not allow any foreigner, in particular, any Japanese, to give the first musical performance of the venue." implied that it's even "worse" with Japanese people performing, hence our discussion.

I would also like to add that I do not agree with your opinion that it will be limited to propaganda for a long time. China is not the same China it was 20 years ago.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 04:48:08 AM by alex »



Offline Pocku

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Reply #37 on: December 22, 2008, 06:00:28 AM
Fair enough. Also, I agree with alex here; the Bird's Nest will probably be open to acts that have nothing to do with propaganda in the near future.




Offline Sander

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Reply #38 on: December 22, 2008, 11:54:33 AM
MisterEN more or less said it. Will they be allowed to be the 2nd or 20th group to preform there, doesn't really matter. What matters is that they for sure can't be the first. And that's it.

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Offline Beauty/Broken

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Reply #39 on: December 22, 2008, 01:45:05 PM
people seem to be overcomplicating the issues with personal opinions and large parading paragraphs, so I'll simply state the situation:

The People's Republic of China (Like all other communist nations) instill a certain degree of propaganda and nationalism into their citizens.

Being that the Bird's Nest is an iconic symbol of the "emergence of China onto the world stage" that was mainly financed by the Chinese Government it is most probable to conclude that the Bird's Nest will also be utilized to instill a degree of propaganda and nationalism into it's citizens.

The question the Chinese cultural office or whoever the fuck rents the damn stadium has to ask when considering the venue is infact (You guessed it): Will the act instill a degree of propaganda and nationalism into it's citizens?

I doubt this is a racism or political issue, china would be just as apathetic to a taiwanese band or even a north korean band as it is towards X. The simple fact is that the Bird's Nest probably won't be open to foreign acts for a long time. I would be very surprised if X ever preforms there.

Nationalism = Racism

Propaganda = Political Issue.

Your concluding paragraph basically agrees with every point you thus far have attempted to refute.



Offline Sander

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Reply #40 on: December 22, 2008, 03:43:48 PM
people seem to be overcomplicating the issues with personal opinions and large parading paragraphs, so I'll simply state the situation:

The People's Republic of China (Like all other communist nations) instill a certain degree of propaganda and nationalism into their citizens.

Being that the Bird's Nest is an iconic symbol of the "emergence of China onto the world stage" that was mainly financed by the Chinese Government it is most probable to conclude that the Bird's Nest will also be utilized to instill a degree of propaganda and nationalism into it's citizens.

The question the Chinese cultural office or whoever the fuck rents the damn stadium has to ask when considering the venue is infact (You guessed it): Will the act instill a degree of propaganda and nationalism into it's citizens?

I doubt this is a racism or political issue, china would be just as apathetic to a taiwanese band or even a north korean band as it is towards X. The simple fact is that the Bird's Nest probably won't be open to foreign acts for a long time. I would be very surprised if X ever preforms there.

Nationalism = Racism

Propaganda = Political Issue.

Your concluding paragraph basically agrees with every point you thus far have attempted to refute.
Nationalism isn't quite the same as racism and I think MisterEN meant political issue as in political issue between China and Japan strictly.

Anyway, if you wish to continue discussing about racism and Asian politics, I suggest you make a separate thread in Offtopic as I'm sure there would be a lot of people interested in taking part of the discussion.

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Offline Yu~Kun

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Reply #41 on: December 28, 2008, 11:04:11 AM
LOL dude there's someone seriously cursing this world tour, i'm telling you


PARTY HARD


Offline Wearex316

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Reply #42 on: December 30, 2008, 01:02:37 AM
MAN THAT SUCKS AFTER THE OLYMPICS A GOT A LITTLE RESPECT FOR THEM CAUSE MAN THAT WAS AN AWSOME OLYMPICS BUT THAT HAS BEEN BLOWN AWAY BY THIS HOW STUPID JUST PLAIN RETARTED



Offline holly.x

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Reply #43 on: January 07, 2009, 04:20:10 AM
well I'm chinese and simply put, you'd be too naive to think it's ok to let them be the first group to hold a concert at the bird's nest.  yes i'm sure it's political issue but motst importantly, the chinese authority would prefer to let a chinese singer to do that as it's natural to think so since it's now an iconic stadium. 

on the other hand, the bird nest is too huge and it's not exactly an ideal venue for concert.  Getting there is a bit of pain as well. moreover the tickets are gonna be pricy as i read they charge over HKD5 million (about USD600K) a day so no singer dares doing a show there yet.  seriously i'd prefer going to Tokyo Dome later when they start the tour in Japan rather than going to Beijing to watch a show which I'd probably spend most of the time looking at the giant screen than them in person.



Offline Ba-DiL

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Reply #44 on: January 07, 2009, 07:14:14 AM
I'm getting sick of politic ...

first, thailand = because of the 'political situation' there, the X JAPAN concert in Bangkok is postponed

now, China = just because something that happened many years ago, X JAPAN concert in China might be canceled

politic suck's Xp

none of your business ...


Offline Sander

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Reply #45 on: January 07, 2009, 09:08:38 AM
It's Yoshiki who's too stubborn to have the concert elsewhere. If holly.x says already that the Birds nest isn't that good for a musical venue, then I don't think it would be a catastrophe if X would preform elsewhere.

Besides, politics are politics. You can't get around them. I'm pretty sure also, that if the Birds nest would be in Tokyo, there would be no chance of a Chinese band being first to preform there.

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Offline Wearex316

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Reply #46 on: January 07, 2009, 02:44:19 PM
i don't get it so if you don't want any foreigners to be the 1st to play lower the price so a Chinese band can play there.then raise the price again yoshiki doesn't care about price if he wants to play there hes gonna play there eventually. its a shame there's a lot about the Chinese govt. that is just bull. like controlling what bands can say in there songs. so think about it if they do that to there own bands what they would try to do if X played there. probably tell them they cant play anything to heavy cause its not allowed



Offline holly.x

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Reply #47 on: January 07, 2009, 03:48:06 PM
Well Wearex316 the crux is in fact more complex than just that.  Yes the chinese authority do have controls of certain things, but you have mixed up what they allow the performers do in China rather than whether they allow a Japan band to be the first performer to play in the bird's nest.  What the latter is not only political issue.  Its a historic problem.  Like hypno mentioned earlier,it would have been the same if the same scenario was to happen in Japan and especially South Korea.  There are still issues and conflicts these days and things could all of a sudden
become very sensitive if anything goes wrong.  Japan industries have been doing it
for ages, the Koreans did not allow a thing regarding Japan entering Korea in the 80s and
they actually still do since you dont notice much japanese stuff in Korea although the policy is now different and they are more open minded.  I'd say the Chinese
are being mild in the case since my first thought of this was "what was Yoshiki thinking???"
and i immediately knew it would be difficult.

I could blame the japanese for never really willing to pledge for forgiveness for what they have done the same way some blame the chinese authority for being narrow-minded cos it's many years ago.  my grandad almost got beheaded by a soldier, but he got lucky and barely survived - with a massive scar on the back of his neck. 

Sorry hypno that's all of my political shite.  I'd rather write a report if I could after their 1st concert ;D




Offline darkcat21

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Reply #48 on: January 07, 2009, 03:51:50 PM
actually this doesn't surprise me because in spain they still ban bands for their lyrics, when they just criticize the goverment. here they even arrest the members XD

so yeah, it happens everywhere

hi there


Offline alex

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Reply #49 on: January 07, 2009, 06:15:08 PM
actually this doesn't surprise me because in spain they still ban bands for their lyrics, when they just criticize the goverment. here they even arrest the members XD

so yeah, it happens everywhere

In Spain? I find that hard to believe. Is there anywhere I can read about that?



Offline darkcat21

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Reply #50 on: January 07, 2009, 07:21:14 PM
don't have here the news for the arrest, i think it was last year, but i found some news for trials and concerts canceled due to the goverment
http://actualidad.terra.es/nacional/articulo/aguirre-soziedad-alkoholica-2932746.htm
http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/437768/0/concierto/sa/leganes/

http://www.freemuse.org/sw15505.asp
http://www.freemuse.org/sw4643.asp -> this is english
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 07:26:34 PM by darkcat21 »

hi there


Offline Ba-DiL

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Reply #51 on: January 08, 2009, 09:50:48 AM
@holly.X

is in China they have a place like Tokyo Dome? I mean a (really)good venue for a music show, since you've said that The Bird Nest isn't good enough for being a venue of a musical concert ...

none of your business ...


Offline Sander

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Reply #52 on: January 08, 2009, 10:02:39 AM

This is my administrator color.


Offline Ba-DiL

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Reply #53 on: January 08, 2009, 10:30:54 AM
Whoa,thanX hypno ... I'll check about it later :P

but I still want holly.X opinion about it since he/she is a chinese ... he/she know more about it I think :)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 10:32:59 AM by Ba-DiL »

none of your business ...


Offline holly.x

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Reply #54 on: January 08, 2009, 03:08:15 PM
I believe they are now considering doing the concert in Shanghai if the request is not approved.  Bird's Nest itself is indeed an impressive stadium, but other than the sheer size of it, I'd suggest him find an indoor stadium for the sake of the spectators as that might be the one and only show they could ever do in China (except HK).  The reason I mentioned the problem of the sound is simple.  You got a massive stadium where it's almost 300M across, it's a nightmare to get the sound right expecially for a rock concert.  Some artists had already stated about the concern of sounds for concerts so it's natural from their point of view. oh btw, did you watch the Olympic closing ceremony?  Leona Lewis sang live and the sound was pretty shite to be honest.  You dont want an X song to get such crappy sound, do you? and to think of someone as particular as Yoshiki....you'd never know what's going to happen... ;D

I have not been to many stadiums in China, but apart from those that were newly built becos of Olympics, many are pretty old and worn down.  some stadiums that had been renewed might not be the picks of Yoshiki becos of the location, ie Guangzhou have a few new ones but I knew some fans have come to HK to buy the concert tickets taking an overnight train so it's pointless to consider that location.  Shanghai arena is pretty old if you compare to the Asia World Expo in HK as the use is different.  I had known that Asia World Expo being the only qualified venue as some are too small and the HK collesium has shite sound and it's now being newed. 

In fact more than anything else, I believe Yoshiki being a proud man as he is, it's easy to understand why he wants to do a concert at the bird's nest.  We just have to wait and see if the managing company in HK (own by a pretty reputable manager of many artists) could make Yo's dream come true.



Offline alex

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Reply #55 on: January 09, 2009, 03:51:04 AM
don't have here the news for the arrest, i think it was last year, but i found some news for trials and concerts canceled due to the goverment
http://actualidad.terra.es/nacional/articulo/aguirre-soziedad-alkoholica-2932746.htm
http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/437768/0/concierto/sa/leganes/

http://www.freemuse.org/sw15505.asp
http://www.freemuse.org/sw4643.asp -> this is english

Woa... I couldn't imagine such things going on in Spain. Thanks for the information.



Offline freshtofu

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Reply #56 on: January 31, 2009, 11:30:41 AM
Maybe, just maybe this is the real reason... I just read a news about the Bird's Nest falling into a state of disuse. They probably have difficulties funding the maintenance alone seeing they don't get much event offers... how odd. They only have one event and it's scheduled for August.

Source:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h_S-JCc7OmvOhJ0bVECCXYoiugnAD961GKKG0



Offline alex

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Reply #57 on: February 01, 2009, 02:04:27 AM
That must be pretty embarassing for the Chinese government.



Offline Fri

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Reply #58 on: February 01, 2009, 02:43:32 AM
I must say this at least twice a day, but nontheless... LOL CHINA



Offline denx

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Reply #59 on: February 01, 2009, 06:46:32 AM
at least they can earn some money if X allowed to play there

Ex denxdenx