X vs. X Japan

Hollywood · **on:** February 16, 2008, 09:16:35 PM

I've searched and I don't think there's a thread like this already, is there?

So... do you prefer X, or X Japan? In your opinion are they the same band, or two different bands? What or who prompted the changes?

I don't mean the literal change of name by the way, I mean the change in style that causes some of us to see X as being much different from X Japan.

As for me, I think it's no secret that I prefer X. How I feel about the differences between the two could be summarized as "without Taiji, it was never the same", though it's more complicated than just that. And I don't say this only because I'm a Taiji fan-- in fact part of the reason I like him is because for me he represents the old X.

I believe in what I call X's "perfect storm": there was something special in the specific combination of Yoshiki, Toshi, hide, Pata, and Taiji. Change just one of those members-- any one of them-- and it's not the same. I also believe that a lot of the band's energy was not in spite of, but because of the tension and conflicts that sometimes happened between the members, especially the dischord between Taiji and Yoshiki. I firmly believe that bands which are themselves somewhat "on the verge of destruction" in one way or another transmit that feeling into their music in ways that stable bands can't (Guns 'n Roses is another example of this).

Removing Taiji removed the main source of conflict. Some feeling of that time lingered on for a little while-- I personally consider Art of Life to belong to the Taiji era in spirit, even though the final version on the CD is played by Heath-- but as time went by and things calmed down, the difference in the band's presence was unmistakable. That ragged edge of fury and danger was all but gone.

I don't hate Heath. I don't even blame him-- I don't think any of it was his fault. I feel sorry for him, in fact: he came in with Taiji's big shoes (cowboy boots?) to fill, and I think he honestly tried his best. But the difference was obvious. In Heath, Yoshiki chose essentially a more passive Taiji (after all, Heath is apparently a fan of LA metal and Motley Crue). I don't feel that Heath ever really fit well with X, but I don't blame Heath for that. As I said, I think he tried. But I'm guessing Yoshiki's priority-- and understandably so, after what happened with Taiji-- was to find someone who wouldn't cause trouble or challenge him. In my mind Heath was simply "miscast", like a decent actor given the wrong role, and I think that's the fault of the "casting director" more than anyone else.

And with Heath, the chemistry of the band changed. Among other changes there were more ballads, of course, because there was no Taiji to team up with hide and push for hard rock. Without the turbulence of the Taiji days, there's really no way X could even have been expected to be the same.

Agree? Disagree?

Uncontrol · **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2008, 09:46:41 PM

Everyone is just going to choose "They're the same band!" -_-

Sander · **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2008, 09:47:53 PM

Heath didn't maybe fit with X but he did fit perfectly with X JAPAN

darkcat21 · **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2008, 09:56:47 PM

It is a hard question... but I think I will choose the last option since the X indie era and the X Japan era are my favourites. The X concerts were more crazy, but the Tokyo Dome lives with Heath were all perfect.

Hollywood · **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2008, 09:57:07 PM

Quote from: "Hypno"

Heath didn't maybe fit with X but he did fit perfectly with X JAPAN

That's a really good point... I guess I hadn't thought of it like that since I always think in terms of X.

VioletCamicat · **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2008, 10:25:53 PM

Mostly I agree with you, Hollywood, so I think it's not neccessary to repeat those points.
About several things I cannot judge of course, since I wasn't there, but I can say that I have the impression Taiji's leaving was one of the reasons that the music style changed.
About the outfit changes I'm not really sure though. I sometimes think that was Toshi's idea. XD But I don't know.

And I think it was really a hard job for heath, not only because being in Taiji's footsteps, but also playing together with these rockstar guys who manage to fill the Tokyo Dome that easily - in Majestic Isabelle (is that the right band?) times he could only dream about those points, I guess. I think before joining they all were idols for him - and then suddenly.. :shock: must feel strange!
He did a really great job, because he matches perfectly to X Japan.

Arucard · **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2008, 10:47:29 PM

I completelly agree with all Hollywood said...

To me X and X-Japan should be considered two different bands... I love all X era material, from the indies stuff all the way to Art Of Life (Heath plays bass on the official version, but it was written when Taiji was in the band).

From the X-Japan material I only really like one song, "Tears".

I have nothing against Heath... He's a good bassist, has some pretty nice solo stuff, and also did a good job on Paranoia, but it's like Hollywood said, he was a good actor given a wrong role... Maybe he fits in the X-Japan era, but since I don't like the X-Japan stuff I can't really say if I agree or not with that...

Lucs · **Reply #7 on:** February 16, 2008, 11:44:23 PM

They are the same band for me.

In fact I really like X (or X Japan

) since hide and Pata joined. I like with Taiji and with Heath both. They are two great bassists who fits perfectly in the band.

I don't really know well X before hide and Pata joined. But I don't like Jun guitar playing. It sounds too much like Yngwie Malmsteem's stuffs, I mean, really fast playing, but not really "melodic". Hard to explain ! Well it's just my opinion !

For me they are definitely the same band, and officially, they are

VioletCamicat · **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2008, 01:06:03 PM

Quote from: "Saint(c)"

For me I never really cared for Taiji I do prefer Heath not by his playing but more his look.He was quiet and mysterious.I didn't like how Taiji tried to take control on stage and have the biggest personality when it was obvious that was taken by Yoshiki and hide.

Biggest personality? I think every single member of X/X Japan had a big and beautifuul personality. And I don't think, Taiji tried to take control of the stage. They all had their part and all used the chance to express theirselves. So why should Taiji hide his own personality, when the others don't? And to me hide was the one who tried to take more and more control on stage, which was obvious then the later years. In my eyes that was too much compared to the others, since X/X Japan isn't about Yoshiki and hide, but about Yoshiki and Toshi.

And speaking about hiding personality. That's for example a point I don't really like on X Japan. For me it seems, there are hidden some personalities... or at least they seem to be less shown than in X days. Except for hide, who seemed to have used the situation to be even more expressive and eye-catching.

myuu · **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2008, 03:27:26 PM

@VioletCamicat: you have my full agreement!

I also think that hide, especially "Yoshiki and hide" were too much in the spotlight..
X/X JAPAN is still Yoshiki+Toshi... it's so sad that it wasn't like that in the later years (for the most fans)
nothing against hide, I like him as an entertainer and musician, but he had taken advantage of the point that other X members got more and more less visual (especially toshi).

Hollywood · **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2008, 06:07:07 PM

@Arucard-- Cool, I thought so about Art of Life but didn't want to say it since I wasn't 100% sure.

Quote from: VioletCamicat

About several things I cannot judge of course, since I wasn't there, but I can say that I have the impression Taiji's leaving was one of the reasons that the music style changed.
About the outfit changes I'm not really sure though. I sometimes think that was Toshi's idea. XD But I don't know.

And I think it was really a hard job for heath, not only because being in Taiji's footsteps, but also playing together with these rockstar guys who manage to fill the Tokyo Dome that easily - in Majestic Isabelle (is that the right band?) times he could only dream about those points, I guess. I think before joining they all were idols for him - and then suddenly.. :shock: must feel strange!
He did a really great job, because he matches perfectly to X Japan.

I totally agree with all of this, too. Nothing to add to it really... well said!

And about the "big personality" thing, personally I'd like to see every member have as big a personality as possible. If Heath's persona is to be mysterious, then damn, I want to see him be the most mysterious dude in the history of rock. I want to see him be 300% Heath. In my view rock'n'roll isn't about doing anything halfway or playing yourself down, it's about using the stage to be even more of yourself.

One thing I really liked about the old X days is how everyone did have such a big presence and was so "themselves" that it nearly became charicature (the Week End PV for example). KISS is another band that does this really well (and, I believe, where X got the notion for it): when they got together to make the band they decided they wanted to be "four Alice Coopers", each with a different stage persona that was drawn from some part of their personality.

If the spotlight is to focus on anyone in X then yeah, it should be Yoshiki and Toshi, though my personal preference is to see them ALL be larger than life.

Since I wasn't there there's no way I can know for sure what went on, but based on Taiji's autobiography I'm convinced that it wasn't all "sweetness and light" between them at least. Certainly anything that comes from his book is going to be biased since it's told from Taiji's perspective-- I expect that the truth would be somewhere in between Taiji's version and whatever Yoshiki's version is-- but nonetheless I'd consider it far more than just "myth". At the very least, the content should qualify as a plausible rumor from a reliable first-hand source. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to randomly make shit up.

Matthias · **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2008, 06:31:11 PM

They are the same band for me. Sure their sound changed, but I think it could have also changed if Taiji would have stayed in the band, but to speculate on that is pointless, cause no one knows. Metallica was still Metallica after Cliff died, AC/DC was still AC/DC after Bon Scott died, Kiss are still Kiss, even without Chris and Ace and X/X Japan is still the same band, even without hide and Taiji.
Of course everyone has that to decide himself if he still considers a band the same band when a major change happens (like lineupchange, musical style etc..).

Lucs · **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2008, 09:51:22 PM

Quote from: "Matthias"

They are the same band for me. Sure their sound changed, but I think it could have also changed if Taiji would have stayed in the band, but to speculate on that is pointless, cause no one knows. Metallica was still Metallica after Cliff died, AC/DC was still AC/DC after Bon Scott died, Kiss are still Kiss, even without Chris and Ace and X/X Japan is still the same band, even without hide and Taiji.
Of course everyone has that to decide himself if he still considers a band the same band when a major change happens (like lineupchange, musical style etc..).

And Guns N'Roses is still Guns N'Roses without Slash, Duff, Steven Adler, Gilby Clarke, Izzy Stradlin, Matt Sorum etc.... lol

I totally agree with what you said. Bands change. Band that always do the same things never work well. Fans are getting bored then ! But well, when they change, some fans just don't like the new stuff, some other like it. New fan comes, old fan leaves etc...

Hollywood · **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2008, 07:51:10 PM

Hmm, one thing I want to clarify: I'm not saying "X never should have gone on without Taiji" or anything like that, since I don't think it's possible to know in advance exactly how a member change will affect a band. I also don't believe that one can recognize a perfect storm situation while it's happening; it's the kind of thing that only becomes visible retrospectively after the storm ends.

But to compare X and X Japan with AC/DC for example-- I don't find that Back in Black was as different from Highway to Hell as Dahlia was different from Jealousy (and I said Jealousy rather than Art of Life because I wanted to compare full-length albums, though Art of Life is equally different from Dahlia in my opinion). The production sounded different because of Mutt Lange, but it wasn't a complete change of direction. In fact I don't think AC/DC ever really changed significantly, which is something I really like about them.

When I listen to Dahlia, to be honest I can't even imagine Taiji playing those songs. Even if he hadn't already left X at that point, if Dahlia looked like an inevitability-- i.e., if somehow he was able to keep his mouth shut about the direction X Japan looked to be headed-- I personally think he would have left prior to Dahlia anyway. I don't think he would have even "survived" through the many ballad singles to get to the album; the whole thing seems just too far from his musical taste. Of course all of this is pure speculation on my part, but personally I think it's fun to speculate.

So, I'm not saying that bands don't change as time goes by, and I'm not saying that member changes are automatically some kind of apocalypse for every band-- but in X's case, from my perspective the whole thing lines up. One of them leaves and their next album sounds like nearly the opposite of the ex-member's musical style, with more of the type of songs (i.e., ballads) that the ex-member said he didn't want. For me there's just no way that can be a total coincidence.

Sander · **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2008, 09:03:29 PM

So what do you think.

Did X change to X JAPAN becouse Taiji left or did Taiji leave becouse X changed to X JAPAN.

(and I know that X changed their name to be popular in the US... you know what I mean...)

Lucs · **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2008, 09:38:30 PM

Quote from: "Hollywood"

When I listen to Dahlia, to be honest I can't even imagine Taiji playing those songs. Even if he hadn't already left X at that point, if Dahlia looked like an inevitability-- i.e., if somehow he was able to keep his mouth shut about the direction X Japan looked to be headed-- I personally think he would have left prior to Dahlia anyway. I don't think he would have even "survived" through the many ballad singles to get to the album; the whole thing seems just too far from his musical taste. Of course all of this is pure speculation on my part, but personally I think it's fun to speculate.

For sure we'll never know. But very often band splits or members leave because of the "evolution" of the music of the band. When members are not on the "same wave length" (dunno if this expression exists in english) anymore on the music they wanna do, it can't just continue like this.

Dunno if it's true, but I heard that another reason why X changed to X Japan was because there was already another band called X in the US (I'm not saying that it's THE reason).

Hollywood · **Reply #16 on:** February 18, 2008, 09:51:16 PM

Quote from: "Hypno"

So what do you think.

Did X change to X JAPAN becouse Taiji left or did Taiji leave becouse X changed to X JAPAN.

(and I know that X changed their name to be popular in the US... you know what I mean...)

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Originally I thought that X changed to X Japan because Taiji left, though the more I think about it, the more I see the other version (Taiji left because X was changing to X Japan) being a strong possiblity too.

(And when I say "Taiji left" I mean "Taiji became dissatisfied, which eventually led to him not being in X anymore", since in Taiji's book it's presented as a complicated situation.)

I guess it all depends on how much of X/X Japan's new direction could be seen coming from that point, which is kind of hard to know. If Yoshiki came over to him and said "Guess what Taiji! After Art of Life, I'm putting four extremely sentimental ballads in the next album whether you like it or not!"... then maybe that would have contributed to his exit.

(Note: I'm not saying such a thing was ever really said, it's just an example.) Though it's really hard to say whether or not Dahlia could be seen coming all the way back in 1992.

Interesting thing to think about anyway... what do you think?

RoseOfPain · **Reply #17 on:** February 18, 2008, 10:28:33 PM

I love them both equally

Hollywood · **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2008, 07:37:05 PM

Quote from: "Lucs"

Dunno if it's true, but I heard that another reason why X changed to X Japan was because there was already another band called X in the US (I'm not saying that it's THE reason).

For just the name change itself, yeah, that's true. Though to me the actual name change was sort of a coincidence, in that it happened at the same time the band was going through a lot of other changes.

dianne_dejarjayes · **Reply #19 on:** February 22, 2008, 08:46:46 AM

Quote from: "RoseOfPain"

I love them both equally

same with me ^^ I love them both

oreocookies · **Reply #20 on:** February 24, 2008, 05:26:44 AM

this is a stupid thread...the past is the past...dont bitch about stuff that you guys wanted for the band...it doesnt matter

X vs. X Japan

Poll

X or X Japan?