X Freaks Forum
The band => General chat => Topic started by: nayef212 on January 21, 2007, 02:52:14 PM
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hmm ive wondered myself who is better and faster joey jordison from slipknot who can play 18 beats per second on the drums or yoshiki..im betting on yoshiki but r there any professional opinions out there?
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u're in a x japan forum u should know the answer
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Some Slipknot man does not even have the right to be in the same sentence. :P
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Hm, depends on you definition of better. I really can't tell, they are both very good in their own way.
For the speed, I'm not sure either because I haven't seen Jordison play that often, I'll have to watch some videos first.
For example
Drum Solo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdHceDElBxs)
The footwork is pretty fast.
One more
warmup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FIVlecfTk8)
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hahaha I don't even know how you could even post such a thing as that :P
Slipknot suck hariy donkey arseholes
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no no no dont get me wrong i know that slipknot is a load of trash and there music is complete bullshit in my opinion but u see me and my friend have an on going argument bout who is the better drummer, i dont know much bout joey jordison except i know he takes speed wen he drums and ive seen a video on there latest dvd u cant even see his hands move there just a blur..anyways i just wanted the opinion of people who know something bout drumming....i want clarification that yoshiki is better...!~~!~!~!~!~
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hahaha I don't even know how you could even post such a thing as that :P
Slipknot suck hariy donkey arseholes
This is about the drummers abilities, not the music.
And I believe from what I've seen that Jordison might be technically better, but I like Yoshikis style more. Of course. :wink:
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And I believe from what I've seen that Jordison might be technically better, but I like Yoshikis style more. Of course. :wink:
Very well said, I'd probably have said the same but my brain is working very slowly lately :roll:
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hahah well still if jordison is faster i think that is simply becuz he is wat 20? yoshiki is now 40 something, and id like to see joey jordison compose a song like art of life, or silent jealousy
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hahah well still if jordison is faster i think that is simply becuz he is wat 20? yoshiki is now 40 something, and id like to see joey jordison compose a song like art of life, or silent jealousy
Yeah, but you know, back in the X days Yoshiki was 20 too, and he still wasn't faster. And I believe this discussion was about technical drumming abilities, not composing skills.
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It might be that Yoshiki didn't want to play too fast anyways and for stamina and longativity playing drums it has to be Yoshiki
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Technically Yoshiki is not really that good, as far as I have heard, but the keyword is ART. Hereby I'd like to quote Cruor, who made a brilliant topic named Yoshiki's Art of Drum (http://www.x-freaks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47) in this very same forum. Only thing I changed there was the link to the drum solo (I belive it was supposed to be from TLL? It doesn't matter anyway tho) becouse the link was outdated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z22nSEgrAQI
Check the link up there. Look at some of the comments. A lot of misunderstanding going on.
"That was the crappiest drum solo ever"
"that was shit"
"what is this?"
etc etc etc.
People are missing the point of Yoshiki's drum solo. There are reasons why he plays the way he does. There are reasons why theres classic music in the background. Theres a reason why he is playing fast and random beats sometimes.
The answer all of this is ART. People dont know that X Japan is all about Visual Kei. Which means visuals/art. People are so blind that all people look at music today is for skills in music. I like other drummers Buddy Rich, Chad, Neil Peart etc etc. I love them all, I love all drummers because every drummer out there in the world has their own way of playing with their own unique style. They want to show what they are capable of. But.... when people see Yoshiki,
Why is it diefferent?
Because people dont see ART in music at all. X Japan have created something that no other bands were able to do for the first time in rock history. Inspired by the famous american band KISS, X Japan is just more than make ups, they are more deeper in relation with the music and the visuals.
Yoshiki's movement on the drums is one of the most brilliant thing I've ever seen. His hair and his posture while playing drums is absolutely beautiful to watch. So much passion and power.
So bascailly people dont know what X Japan is, if they dont know what the drum solo is all about, they dont know X Japan. Its funny how people dont know because when you see a drummer playing a solo, people will get it right away that he is playing some awsome beats. When people see a band playing they get it that they are playing awsome tunes. But half of the people out there dont know what the hell is going with X Japan.
X Japan is just so powerful in a way that people just cant understand. Like Yoshiki, people dont understand this man's amazing talent with music, its so deep that people wont understand and it would take days to figure out what Yoshiki and his music is all about.
Thats how people are now, your going to see it everyday. People are more ignorant and ignoring the deper meaning of music. All they do is just listen to it and if it sounds good they will like it. They dont study, people are too lazy today that they dont even TRY TO UNDERSTAND the music.
To me Yoshiki's drum solo is one of the best drum solo I've ever seen. It stands out every drummers solo out there becuase he is probably the only drummer who played like this. Not to mention his injury on his neck just shows that he uses his full body with heart, soul and passion just to play the drums.
Thats a huge sacrafice and its a good one too.
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i agree with the above quote, music is not about who plays faster etc etc, one of the best things about x japan was how much there fans loved them and still do, i mean there one of the only bands who became more popular after disbandment, all you have to do is look at a band like slipknots fans and then look at the x fans, xjapan accomplished so much
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oh..that's really true!!! ^__^
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i really agree, its as if Yoshikis soul connects with the drum set wen he plays :D
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thnkx for quoting me :D
And hey dont get me wrong Joey Jordison is a good drummer but you cant compare his drumming style to Yoshiki's.
Joey just sits and moves his arms. His drums sticks re light as hell because professional drummers uses light sticks so they can do the fills faster and easier.
Yoshiki sits, moves his whole body and plays :D And his sticks are heavier so you can hear the drum more loud and powerful.
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thnkx for quoting me :D
And hey dont get me wrong Joey Jordison is a good drummer but you cant compare his drumming style to Yoshiki's.
Joey just sits and moves his arms. His drums sticks re light as hell because professional drummers uses light sticks so they can do the fills faster and easier.
Yoshiki sits, moves his whole body and plays :D And his sticks are heavier so you can hear the drum more loud and powerful.
And while Yoshiki moves like hell he hurts himself... And that's NOT good even if it looks fun and all that shit.
These "I know because that's the way feel about this matter"- comments really annoy me...
I can tell you that don't know what you're talking about. What on earth has the drumstick weight got to do with anything? Joey BTW uses ALUMINIUM drumsticks which are NOT lighter that Yoshiki's. I haven't played with Yoshiki's sticks but I've tried Joey's and they where not as light as you claim them to be. Yoshiki's, if I remember correctly, are just standard american hickory which is quite light compared to aluminium sticks. So their goes your "light-sticks-theory". "And his sticks are heavier so you can hear the drum more loud and powerful." Could it be possible that Yoshiki's drums are bigger in size, because that is a FACT, and they produce a deeper and bigger sound than Joey's smaller drums? On the 80's when Yoshiki bought his drums the standard drumsizes where bigger than nowadays.
"His drums sticks re light as hell because professional drummers uses light sticks so they can do the fills faster and easier." Can you really prove this? Jazz drummers usually use those light-as-hell sticks where as metal drummers choose those longer, heavier and harder ones. Trust me. I KNOW! *raises one's hand to say that is a drummer himself*
Joey has played in a jazz before Slipknot so, I know this, he can do much MUCH more. But Slipknot doesn't need anything more. Why should he play something more? C'mon, people haven't you REALLY listened to X's drumlines? It's the same freaking power metal beat that you hear one EVERY single metal album out there!! OK, Yoshiki's drumfills are veeery tricky though BUT so are Joey's!
If you ask me, I have to say that it's not about "art" or "speed" or anything like it. This conversation is all about the matter that we know as
THE HALO EFFECT!
We like X. Not everyone of us like Slipknot. "Slipknot suck hariy donkey arseholes", "no no no dont get me wrong i know that slipknot is a load of trash and there music is complete bullshit in my opinion"... And just because one doesn't like Slipknot = Joey is not as good as Yoshiki.
If I'd say that Joey has more soul in his playing than Yoshiki does. Am I wrong? It's my opinion right? "Art" and "soul" etc. are words that are totally subjective. One cannot say that the other one is wrong when saying f.ex "Joey has more sould in playing than Yoshiki does".
And if we can't compare Yoshiki and Joey, then who can we compare? I can give you guys THOUSANDS of technically skilled drummers who wipe the floor with both Joey AND Yoshiki. For example this guy called Mike Mangini (http://youtube.com/watch?v=pROEtW2UGCc) is way better technically than Yoshiki and Joey put together and I see the SOUL in his playing. Can you really tell me that I'm wrong by saying that?
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And if we can't compare Yoshiki and Joey, then who can we compare?
I say: DO NOT COMPARE ARTISTS AT ALL!
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*snipped*
Agreed with nearly everything this guy said. I think using the word "ART" is an easy way out of so many things. I've discussed this for the "Art of Life" piano solo.. to me, its random bashing. There is no melody to it, but lots of people say its great because its "Art".
Yoshiki's drumming is great and he is very skilled when it comes to the songs.. but to me, his drum solo is mostly (much like the piano solo, I dont mean the whole solo, but certain parts) like his piano solo in Art of Life. Random bashing. That "Mike Mangini" clip that was just posted, now THAT is what I call a drum solo. And after seeing that clip only, i'd say he is a better drummer (technically and musically) than Yoshiki.
I do like Yoshiki and X Japan obviously or I wouldnt be here. But a lot of people cannot say anything bad about their favourite artists. Why? I have no idea. Some people think they are not a true fan if they dont praise anything and everything related to the band. I'm not saying that applies to anyone in particular but its true.
X Japan are my favourite band of all time and they literally changed my life, however i'll gladly stand up and say i'm not a big fan of hide. I'll also say that some of the stuff in Yoshiki's piano/drum solo's are just bad. If you enjoy listening to it, great. Go and enjoy it. If you think its art, fine. Its all down to opinion, and my opinion is that its not art, its not good and if anyone else did it, they would be shot down in an instant.. but no, its Yoshiki. He could never do a bad thing, and anything he does that appears to be "random", is classed as art. :roll:
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Yes, you shouldn't let your love for the band/person blind you.
And about the word "art", I consider music as art, so everything included is art. However there are of course good and bad art ;P In particular the Art of Life -piano solo I consider as a very important part of the song, sort of a destruction before the fabulous outro rises from the ashes, but I do admit that not all of it is very pleasant to listen.
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one thing that you guys might be missing is that there is no "random" playing for yoshiki , as the so called " random " note bashing for art of life piano solo , its written that way... and i think its the same for the drum solos
its true yoshiki might not be the best but its without a doubt one hell of a player and an amazing musician , his music writing skills and his abilities to play many instruments are amazing , only from a true musician wich probably the other guys mentioned here do not have, yes i did go alittle offtopic because this is about drum skills , but drum skills not only rely on whos faster than the other one... its about how you play it and what you play on it
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one thing that you guys might be missing is that there is no "random" playing for yoshiki , as the so called " random " note bashing for art of life piano solo , its written that way... and i think its the same for the drum solos
Well it may have been written but to me, it SOUNDS like random bashing. IMO, Its not pleasant to listen to. At one point, he actually hits half the piano with his forearm then stands up with his back to the piano and hits a handful of notes with his hand. Now i've just watched that and if you are trying to tell me he wrote it so he would hit EVERY SINGLE NOTE THAT HE HIT DURING THAT PART, I think you are just being silly. For the most of it, he did write the solo but on that part (23:45 on the video), that is just bashing. He might have picked specific parts that he was going to bash, but thats all it is. At that point, he is not playing the piano, he is hitting it.
Whether he wrote it all or not, a fair amount of the solo is just him hitting the piano. There is no melody to it and it sounds crap (IMO obviously). But he gets away with it because its "art".
Anyway, this is about the drumming, not piano. I'll shut up now.
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hmm ive wondered myself who is better and faster joey jordison from slipknot who can play 18 beats per second on the drums or yoshiki..im betting on yoshiki but r there any professional opinions out there?
the problem isn't about 18 beats per second..
just compare them when they play drum for a song..
it's useless whenever they play drum very great but can't attract the audiences..
so,how many beats yoshiki/joey does in a second isn't important..
coz the most important thing when playing drum is rythem..not about fast..
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I don't think this Joey dude is better then Yoshiki.
Yoshiki will really show you how good he still is when this superband gets around to making music.
Let's hope so, but until then can you show me why is Yoshiki better than Joey? How much of Joey have you really seen? Don't get me wrong, Yoshiki, the genious he is, is basically a god for me, but I know there are better drummers technically, LOTS of better drummers.
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I don't think this Joey dude is better then Yoshiki.
Yoshiki will really show you how good he still is when this superband gets around to making music.
Let's hope so, but until then can you show me why is Yoshiki better than Joey? How much of Joey have you really seen? Don't get me wrong, Yoshiki, the genious he is, is basically a god for me, but I know there are better drummers technically, LOTS of better drummers.
Yeah Yoshiki is a god, but is he really that amazing as a drummer? Everyone here seems to take his composing and piano skills on to this conversation.
Seriously... X was formed in the 80's... If Yoshiki still hasn't, according to to Unfinished, shown us how good he is, I truly doubt that he'll show it now either...
Just for the record. Yoshiki is my number one drummer. I like his playing more than anyone else's. Except Nightwish's Jukka Nevalainen. Those two are my gods. But still they're not the best ones. They're just my favourites.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_FgTmAGVqzI I'd like to see Yoshiki doing that... Ok, I too find it boring and quite useless as drum solo. But what about Yoshiki's solo on On the verge of destruction (http://youtube.com/watch?v=XatejqVqwxc)? That one is freaking boring too. But hey! IT'S ART!!! So it's awesome? Gimme a break...
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Joey is a great drummer but that drum solo was crap. So was Yoshiki's.. eh
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Didn't that Joey take speed to be able to drum faster?
And in the video of Joey posted by Keppikeksi... Yea it was kinda cool how he played sideways and stuff but it was really boring. I mean he showed almost no emotion and the drum solo itself sucked really...
And why I think Yoshiki's drum solos are better? Two reasons:
1) You can see that he puts his heart to it really and is not just like "Hey whutsup, ok I'll play abit of this if you want" (even if it's only for the show and even if he only acts, it's good to look at)
2) He has some background music. Classical background music. Lovely classical background music that he has composed or put together. I think that gives REALLY alot to his solos.
All my opinon though :)
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Didn't that Joey take speed to be able to drum faster?
And in the video of Joey posted by Keppikeksi... Yea it was kinda cool how he played sideways and stuff but it was really boring. I mean he showed almost no emotion and the drum solo itself sucked really...
And why I think Yoshiki's drum solos are better? Two reasons:
1) You can see that he puts his heart to it really and is not just like "Hey whutsup, ok I'll play abit of this if you want" (even if it's only for the show and even if he only acts, it's good to look at)
2) He has some background music. Classical background music. Lovely classical background music that he has composed or put together. I think that gives REALLY alot to his solos.
All my opinon though :)
Yes, that is why you think they are better, but they still don't show the technical superiority, which is the case here.
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well first to clear a few things up.....
its Yoshiki (not joey) that took speed ( in the 80s) to try to make himself play faster
and Joey's sticks are aluminum, they are ahead brand sticks, and they ARE a LOT lighter than any wooden sticks made (they also suck because the break easily).
Ive been playing drums for 15 years now and in my opinion, neither joey or yoshiki are technically that great. First of all.....i dont understand where the idea came from to compare these two.....especially in terms of who is faster. There are TONS of drumers who are a million times faster than the both of them. Really, neither one of them play that fast. Probably the fastest song Yoshiki ever played drums on was the Jealousy version of Stab Me In The Back, which i guess sounds fast to someone who doesn't play or know much about drums, but really, its not that fast. Second, speed has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with drumming anyway, so asking who is better based on who can play faster is stupid.
Pretty much everything Yoshiki plays is the same fills over and over in every song. He is very repetitive, but at least he does have his own style....for example....the drumming in the faster songs Blue Blood, Silent Jealousy, Dahlia.....are almost identical drum beats and fills. Slower songs like Celebration, Weekend, Joker, and Sadistic Desire are also pretty much the same. Then, the ballads, Endless Rain, Unfinished, Tears.....also have the exact same patterns. EVEN the instrumentals, XClamation and Give Me The Pleasure are the same!
Anyway, I wouldnt say that Yoshiki sucks or anything, he is definatley a good drummer....he just isn't that creative, and speed wise, he really isnt THAT fast.
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"but its Yoshiki!! he's from Japan and he couldnt ever be anything other than perfect! No-one will ever be better because he's Japanese!!"
Sorry, I had to. I wonder if anyone will respond with anything like that :P
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"but its Yoshiki!! he's from Japan and he couldnt ever be anything other than perfect! No-one will ever be better because he's Japanese!!"
Sorry, I had to. I wonder if anyone will respond with anything like that :P
What if I'd say another Japanese drummer is better :shock:
:P
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Whether he wrote it all or not, a fair amount of the solo is just him hitting the piano. There is no melody to it and it sounds crap (IMO obviously). But he gets away with it because its "art".
Anyway, this is about the drumming, not piano. I'll shut up now.
lol
i get you still BizKiTRoAcH, i really do. But you see if you're gonna view Yoshiki's drum as an ordinary drummer. You wont be able to feel his music.
Becuz Yoshiki isnt ordinary ;)
I view Joey's drumming skills as a professional drummer who is good at making catchy rhythm. Because thats what it is and it is very obvious. And he does add a little art by what he wears, including the mask and playing it upside down which is pretty cool 8)
But yea. There is no limit in art and there are no rules in art. And like I said in the topic I made. You cant view Yoshiki's drumming just like you view any other professinal drummers out there. Becuz on Yoshiki's perspective it is just totally different.
Its like every hit he makes on the toms and snare or crash, there are visuals coming out of it.
Its hard to explain lol
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i get you still BizKiTRoAcH, i really do. But you see if you're gonna view Yoshiki's drum as an ordinary drummer. You wont be able to feel his music.
Becuz Yoshiki isnt ordinary ;)
I view Joey's drumming skills as a professional drummer who is good at making catchy rhythm. Because thats what it is and it is very obvious. And he does add a little art by what he wears, including the mask and playing it upside down which is pretty cool 8)
But yea. There is no limit in art and there are no rules in art. And like I said in the topic I made. You cant view Yoshiki's drumming just like you view any other professinal drummers out there. Becuz on Yoshiki's perspective it is just totally different.
Its like every hit he makes on the toms and snare or crash, there are visuals coming out of it.
Its hard to explain lol
... WTF? Yoshiki is a drummer like me, Crows In Black, Joey Jordison, Dave Weckl, Jukka Nevalainen, Mike Mangini, Buddy Rich or Animal of The Muppets. He can be compared as drummer just like everyone else out there. I really don't understand this "it's art maaaaaan and I like it so it's good"- talk... Like Crows In Black already said, Yoshiki is very repetitive (though I cannot play all of his patterns myself) and the term "art" doesn't change that. I understand the main point: Yoshiki makes those absolutely fantastic songs in which he plays piano and drums. But his position as a composer or a pianist doesn't make his DRUMMING any better does it? If it does, please tell me how. I would really like to know that.
I guess I should start a career as camera man so I'd get more angles into my playing...
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well you didnt get the point actually but yea w.e
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Does anyone have a video of a Yoshiki Drum Solo in his early X years before he got injured and stuff?
And enough with the debating Yoshiki vs. Joey, lets just all agree that Billy Cobham is an amazing drummer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOEQNPOHowI
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And enough with the debating Yoshiki vs. Joey, lets just all agree that Billy Cobham is an amazing drummer.
This is a CONVERSATION. At least I'm not trying to argue about this matter, I'm only asking questions and giving my own opinions here. [OFFTOPIC Cobham is an amazing drummer]
Really I'm curious about why is Yoshiki so special as a DRUMMER. Him being a composer, professional pianist, the poet behind X's lyrics and stuff doesn't affect his position as a drummer - at least I don't see why those things would affect it.
It's true that drummers have totally different perspectives, but is that a reason of sort for us not to compare them? Yoshiki's perspective differs from Joey's as well as their's differ from other drummers' perspectives. But technique has nothing to do with perspectives, art, etc. And didn't Hurley mention a few pages back that we're talking about the "technical superiority" here? And yes, I'm familiar that comparing people is stupid at times, but it was the main point of this topic.
Joey makes catchy drum patterns has Cruor said. He's quite fast also. Yoshiki grooves like a drunken moose on a freeway with a saxophone. He also repeats the same patterns in different songs, but then again... why fix something if it's not broken?
"Its like every hit he makes on the toms and snare or crash, there are visuals coming out of it. "
Visual facts don't affect the techical superiority, do they? And I guess that's your personal opinion about his playing = has nothing to do with technical superiority. I admit, Yoshiki's playing looks cool and I like to watch him bashing the hell out of his Tama kit. Yoshiki is one of my personal drumming icons, but I wouldn't never say him being the best drummer in the world. Since he isn't - and "the best drummer" doesn't even exist.
Joey isn't a master of technique either. There are lots of drummer who are better than him. Some people have more groove, some have bigger egos and the rest have something. But those depend on personal opinions and not facts like technique.
well you didnt get the point actually but yea w.e
Please tell what the main point was then?
Some people like chocolate and some prefer chewing gum.
IMO the best drummer alive is Nightwish's Jukka Nevalainen. But I'm not talking about technics here. It's only my personal opinion. Many are more skilled than him but I like his playing the best.
People tend to give halos on people they worship. But that halo doesn't change facts which all of us can see if we are open-minded. It only makes us blind and I don't know about you people - but I prefer seeing where I'm walking.
All in all, technique = a better drummer? Yes and no. It may show us who is a better drummer but that doesn't mean that person would be a better MUSICIAN.
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Honestly my English is really bad.
Therefore I cannot explain very well.
And its okay to have your own views. Im just trying to open some of the viewers out there who arent seeing what others can, you know what i mean?
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Really, don't mix the whole art stuff into the conversation when the conversation is about technical ability. Technical ability is comparable, art is very abstract or whatever, different in everyones own mind. You may see some art in Yoshiki's playing, but that's not making him technically any better, that's just some element that fascinates you, or everyone in their own way.