Whatever happened to...

Lucs · **Reply #90 on:** July 19, 2008, 06:13:35 AM

So people are insulting each others and everything's fine ?

I have no prob with people saying shit, fuckin', and stuffs like that as long as it's not directed to any other member of the forum btw. Maybe I wasn't clear on that...

Hollywood · **Reply #91 on:** July 19, 2008, 06:27:16 AM

Quote from: Lucs on July 19, 2008, 05:34:13 AM

Btw, I was just makin' fun of your statement man, it's so ridiculous, in my opinion, to think that a forum about a band should be just like the "attitude" of the band.

Honestly, I'm laughing so hard right now I can barely type.

I mean: WOW! There's a forum about a band and people expect the forum to have something to do with that band! You're right, how completely fucking ridiculous is THAT?

Lucs · **Reply #92 on:** July 19, 2008, 06:30:09 AM

That's not what I mean, my english is really THAT bad or what ?

What I'm saying is that it's not because the members of the band consider themselves as anarchist or wathever that a forum about them has to have NO RULES. (Just an example). Do you agree with that ? (I'm asking 'cause maybe there's a misunderstood...).

Kasparek · **Reply #93 on:** July 19, 2008, 06:55:16 AM

Quote from: Lucs on July 19, 2008, 06:30:09 AM

What I'm saying is that it's not because the members of the band consider themselves as anarchist or wathever that a forum about them has to have NO RULES.

i absolutely support that. though i'm not entirely happy with the staff's moderation here, i have to say that only because x japan have once once been musicians with a punks attitude, doesnt mean fans have to act like that as well.
lets ust be ourselves, but behaving like someone else, just because we like their music... lol, im wondering, whether there are any "normal" x japan fans too, or is everybody a die hard crazy ass motherfucker with colored hair and leather boots and a fuck-the-system attitude...!

MiscastDice · **Reply #94 on:** July 19, 2008, 07:47:25 AM

http://roseandblood.lefora.com/forum/

ALRIGHT MOTHERFUCKERS ROSE AND BLOOD IS LIVE!

Uncontrol · **Reply #95 on:** July 19, 2008, 07:49:48 AM

Quote from: Lucs on July 19, 2008, 06:13:35 AM

So people are insulting each others and everything's fine ?

I have no prob with people saying shit, fuckin', and stuffs like that as long as it's not directed to any other member of the forum btw. Maybe I wasn't clear on that...

There's a line you have to draw. If you follow an admin around, calling her a fat bitch, that's one thing. If you say "XD You're a fucking idiot for having such a stupid opinion", that's another thing. One should be OK, one shouldn't. I mean, people are going to disagree, sometimes more harshly than others and if someone can't deal with that behind a computer screen, then god forbid you ever step outside your door.

We need to quit child proofing everything and just let things be. We've never had a harassment problem before, so all of this talk is neither here nor there. These rules are unwarranted and only add to the existing tension on the board.

Lucs · **Reply #96 on:** July 19, 2008, 07:53:45 AM

Well, here we don't allow a member saying to another is a fucking idiot. I really don't see how this could be useful anyway ? Just respect the other members that's all... I don't see how it's different in real life.

Well, thanks for making this forum MD and good luck with it, at least now we have two "complementary" forums, and I really think it's a good thing.

Uncontrol · **Reply #97 on:** July 19, 2008, 08:06:06 AM

I don't think you guys understand.

Lucs · **Reply #98 on:** July 19, 2008, 08:09:51 AM

So the only problem you have here is with one of the admin ?

Matilda in Oz · **Reply #99 on:** July 19, 2008, 08:43:03 AM

Voicing one's opinion and to complain aren't necessarily the same things. But if most opinions are treated as complaints, people are going to get insulted.

Also, it's doubtful that all members are, or want to be, outright bad-ass rockers themselves in their real life. Just because a forum allows room for movement doesn't have to mean that everybody's going to behave the same way. But then again, what if they are? Do we all have to be the same and fit into one cutesy mold?

Lucs · **Reply #100 on:** July 19, 2008, 08:45:47 AM

Quote from: Matilda in Oz on July 19, 2008, 08:43:03 AM

Voicing one's opinion and to complain aren't necessarily the same things. But if most opinions are treated as complaints, people are going to get insulted.

I totally agree with you. But for me, complaining is just saying "this is bad, that is bad etc..." without trying to suggest solutions.

Quote

Also, it's doubtful that all members are, or want to be, outright bad-ass rockers themselves in their real life. Just because a forum allows room for movement doesn't have to mean that everybody's going to behave the same way. But then again, what if they are? Do we all have to be the same and fit into one cutesy mold?

That's not what we want. I think Belle & Sebastian summed up very well what I was saying. It's just that the rules of the forum ask members to respect each others, that's it.

Matilda in Oz · **Reply #101 on:** July 19, 2008, 09:00:23 AM

Quote from: Lucs on July 19, 2008, 08:45:47 AM

That's not what we want. I think Belle & Sebastian summed up very well what I was saying. It's just that the rules of the forum ask members to respect each others, that's it.

I'm sure the good intention is there, and perhaps some people need to have this as a rule, although I would say that's a minority who are likely to break the rule anyway. To be respectful of each other is a basic unspoken rule in all social interactions, so does it really have to be down in writing? Anyway, I'm fine with it being there, although I find it to be overkill.

Lucs · **Reply #102 on:** July 19, 2008, 09:09:55 AM

In my opinion, it really SHOULDN'T have to be written anywhere ! As you said, it's an unspoken rule in ALL social interactions.

Now the admins chose to write it, well, I don't have any problem with it as I was already respecting it before it was even written.

Matilda in Oz · **Reply #103 on:** July 19, 2008, 10:22:43 AM

Of course. Nevertheless, when a basic social courtesy becomes a written rule, it does give off the feel of being treated as preschool kids. "Now, now, children, let's all respect each other". LOL (Sorry if this is a repetition of what's already been rehashed over and over)

ferret · **Reply #104 on:** July 19, 2008, 12:03:02 PM

Bye MD, good luck with the forum, I hope you don't feel the need to comment here anymore as you can bash us all over there now.

Anna · **Reply #105 on:** July 19, 2008, 01:28:58 PM

Ferret, hey... I don't think that was necessary.

MD, good luck! I will stop by for sure!

ferret · **Reply #106 on:** July 19, 2008, 01:32:31 PM

I know, but I'm such a rebel I can't NOT go against the rules sometimes

MillieQOF · **Reply #107 on:** July 19, 2008, 02:12:49 PM

Wow. Just wow.

If some people want all of the forum members to either be assholes or be supposed to take every insult thrown at them - good riddance. I really don't think this is the board for you.

Do you honestly think i.e. Taiji would sign up to this board just to insult everyone he comes along?

ferret · **Reply #108 on:** July 19, 2008, 02:24:43 PM

I can't even believe somebody actually thinks their web persona would match their eighties to early nineties stage persona.

Anna · **Reply #109 on:** July 19, 2008, 07:26:33 PM

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A forum doesn't have to be like the attitude of the band. Yeah, in the 80's X Japan's member where some hard rocker motherfucker's and all, so ? Do you really see the members of the band NOW swearing all the time and acting like crazy hard rocker ? Come on, now they are all cute, hugging each others with plushies on stage ! Which is much better in my opinion.

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I also think that we reached a point where all your complaints are just USELESS. YOU are ruining the atmosphere of the forum with that. People just want to come here and have fun, they don't wanna see people arguing and all about some rules or wathever.

Don't agree. And frankly - 99,5 percent of the threads is available for people to "come here and have fun". All they have to do to go and hug plushies is visit any of them, nobody has to read the few threads (like this one) devoted to current problems.

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So, really, if you don't like it so much, LEAVE ! Create your own forum with NO rules (funny that nobody chose this option in the poll as some here seemed to say that there should be no rules Tongue, but well). But please, pleaaaaaaaase, stop with all the complaints, it's really useless. It's really not as if you were trying to find solutions or what, you're just complaining to make the staff look stupid or I don't know what you want...

Funny, as I don't really think Hollywood suggests to delete all rules. I think he realizes just as well as anybody else that "some" rules are really necessary. For all I remember, it has always been You who came and started saying that "we can't have a forum without rules, so people calm down", although such idea has not been proposed or at least widely supported.

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Hollywood you haven;t even been here long enough to speak about the 'good times' once upon a time...

That really is a matter of opinion. I think he has, because certain period - or periods - here has really been very good and Hollywood was here through one of these.

MiscastDice · **Reply #110 on:** July 19, 2008, 07:37:07 PM

Quote from: Unfinished on July 19, 2008, 04:31:04 PM

Hollywood you haven;t even been here long enough to speak about the 'good times' once upon a time...

Oh yeah? Both Hollywood and I were here for March 28, 29, and 30 of this year, which were some of the forum's best days.

I remember then. . . that was when we all were happy over the concerts. . .

Hollywood · **Reply #111 on:** July 19, 2008, 08:57:14 PM

Quote from: Anna on July 19, 2008, 07:26:33 PM

Funny, as I don't really think Hollywood suggests to delete all rules. I think he realizes just as well as anybody else that "some" rules are really necessary. For all I remember, it has always been You who came and started saying that "we can't have a forum without rules, so people calm down", although such idea has not been proposed or at least widely supported.

Exactly. Lucs is very persistent in creating straw man arguments out of this. As I pointed out on the previous page of this thread-- and addressed to Lucs, though he (as I expected) didn't reply to it-- no one in the history of these discussions has ever suggested to remove ALL the rules. No one. Ever. As you (Lucs) will notice, and as you pointed out yourself, currently there are no votes in the poll for "no rules". That's not exactly a coincidence. No one is asking for that, nor has anyone ever asked for that. If you can point out so much as one post where someone says "let's throw out ALL the rules", please show that to me.

And I'd like to also point to Lucs, again, that no one had any problems with the old rules. So let's end the parade of straw men now, shall we?

As for no one suggesting solutions: plenty of solutions have been suggested, by me and by others, go back and read the old threads. I'm not going to repeat myself ad nauseum on points I've already made in the past, especially not for someone who's more interested in informing me that I want no rules (which is not true) than in actually reading what I type.

And as for "not having been here long enough", I've been active here since January and lurked for a while before that. But honestly, you don't have to have been here even for as long as that to notice that this place has taken a 180* turn from what it used to be. Four months or so would be sufficient. Unless you're trying to argue that this place has always been like this (and it clearly hasn't), I'm not sure what your point is.

Maverick · **Reply #112 on:** July 19, 2008, 10:04:33 PM

Ok, I'm following that disussion now quite a while and really felt like throwing back something several times. However, that won't be helpful here, and make it even worse. So I try to keep cool headed this time as much as I can.

Actually, I suggest all of you to have a look at quite some other threads but this. There has nothing changed really. The discussions go on like before, in a calm and senseful way like it actually was before, and how it should be now and hopefully will be in future.

Within that discussion, it seems you're complaining about the 'good old days' having gone. But what I think is, you can't see it anymore, since you concentrate on that here, to complain, to swear, to fight against each other.

If you want to have an atmosphere which suits a band as X is - honesly, THAT's the wrong way.

And for the record. I'm NOT speaking as a moderator, since I'm not really one in that sense. But I know, that the moderators and admins here do their best to find a good solution for every side - the users, the mods and admins themselves, AND everyone else who may have a look at this forum - even for the band. And that's the point. We should respect that band we love so much.

As for the rules... they are there - so what? To me nothing has changed really the situation now. Except of one thing that there are some persons who don't agree with them and try to ditch them ASAP no matter what happens and no matter how, swear like the devil himself and behave like a kindergarten! C'mon! Why is it neccessary to use such a rough tone??? I mean, the rules are NOT there to forbid people to write down their thoughts! And I am someone who HATES swearing since it makes no party feeling good.

I'd suggest to rather come down a bit again, have a drink, if you want, listen to good music and go and see what's written in other threads and share your thoughts there - instead of fighting against each other rather go along together. I mean, some of us met already RL, and that great atmosphere IS still there, and it's fun. Such as it should be here.

And fuck the sistem (sic!

) YEAH sure, but even the hardest rockers follow rules - which are sometimes way stricter than those we have here - especcially those of Japanese rockers - you'd be surprised to see their discipline

MiscastDice · **Reply #113 on:** July 19, 2008, 10:58:24 PM

Quote from: Maverick on July 19, 2008, 10:04:33 PM

Ok, I'm following that disussion now quite a while and really felt like throwing back something several times. However, that won't be helpful here, and make it even worse. So I try to keep cool headed this time as much as I can.

Actually, I suggest all of you to have a look at quite some other threads but this. There has nothing changed really. The discussions go on like before, in a calm and senseful way like it actually was before, and how it should be now and hopefully will be in future.

Within that discussion, it seems you're complaining about the 'good old days' having gone. But what I think is, you can't see it anymore, since you concentrate on that here, to complain, to swear, to fight against each other.

If you want to have an atmosphere which suits a band as X is - honesly, THAT's the wrong way.

And for the record. I'm NOT speaking as a moderator, since I'm not really one in that sense. But I know, that the moderators and admins here do their best to find a good solution for every side - the users, the mods and admins themselves, AND everyone else who may have a look at this forum - even for the band. And that's the point. We should respect that band we love so much.

As for the rules... they are there - so what? To me nothing has changed really the situation now. Except of one thing that there are some persons who don't agree with them and try to ditch them ASAP no matter what happens and no matter how, swear like the devil himself and behave like a kindergarten! C'mon! Why is it neccessary to use such a rough tone??? I mean, the rules are NOT there to forbid people to write down their thoughts! And I am someone who HATES swearing since it makes no party feeling good.

I'd suggest to rather come down a bit again, have a drink, if you want, listen to good music and go and see what's written in other threads and share your thoughts there - instead of fighting against each other rather go along together. I mean, some of us met already RL, and that great atmosphere IS still there, and it's fun. Such as it should be here.

And fuck the sistem (sic! ) YEAH sure, but even the hardest rockers follow rules - which are sometimes way stricter than those we have here - especcially those of Japanese rockers - you'd be surprised to see their discipline

Fuck strawmen, get sore~

hideisgod · **Reply #114 on:** July 20, 2008, 02:17:13 AM

You guys, seriously.
I've been here since April 2007 and let me tell you, even though I didnt post much, I sure as hell can tell you it used to be nice and calm here.
Wow, what the hell?
I really don't like getting involved because I hate when people dislike me and also, I didn't even start this,
but really. It's gotten crazy.

As already been stated, have you guys even read X's lyrics?
Um, I'm pretty sure if there are people on here, they have. And the lyrics arent sunshine and rainbows. So, yeah, cursing shouldn't be a problem, but I think Lucs has already stated that its okay as long as its not directed at others, am I right? I do hope.

Another thing that I want to say is to agree with this.

Quote from: Matilda in Oz on July 19, 2008, 08:43:03 AM

Voicing one's opinion and to complain aren't necessarily the same things. But if most opinions are treated as complaints, people are going to get insulted.

Why is it such a problem that people want to say their opinions? Complaints are opinions too, I mean, if someone doesn't like something, it's their OPINION. And I really am not insulted or angry or anything right now, just felt like getting a few words out.

If that doesnt really make sense, I'm sorry, because I havent read the last page and I really dont feel like it.

alex · **Reply #115 on:** July 20, 2008, 06:36:39 AM

Lucs, I really wonder why you view Hollywood's posts as something negative. I believe forum administrators should strive for every user's satisfaction and not give up too quickly. From what I remember, he's counter-argued pretty much every single thing you said. Perhaps in an aggressive fashion, but always with valid points. My understanding is that he's never been here simply to mess with you.

As you probably know, he usually present his points well and his posts contain more substance than most ones on this forum. The fact that he is unhappy with the rules is something I'd hope for you admins to view as a failure, not a success. I hope, you, as a moderator, at least try to appreciate his dedication, as I would assume his efforts - for him - are to make this forum a better place. A goal you share in common, perhaps? How you hint that he just should leave looks a bit immature, as you indeed do represent the forum in a debate of this subject.

I guess it all depends on the way you guys wanna run this forum, though. If you don't want to deal with unhappy users, you don't have to (though if you didn't, I guess this thread would've been locked/deleted long ago).

Lucs · **Reply #116 on:** July 20, 2008, 07:06:00 AM

Well, I really would like to make things go better, but we, the staff, can't be the only ones to make an effort. If people don't even want to give a try to the new rules, it's not fair. Don't you think ? I mean, how could anyone know if they are good or not if we don't even give it a try ?

I just, personally, have the feeling that sometimes, reading Hollywood's posts (and not only his), his main goal is not to make things go better, but make the staff (and maybe some particular persons from the staff) look ridiculous. Maybe I wrong and I hope I am. It's just a feeling that I have.

Anyway, all this stuff is really boring me. I really tried to do the best, but it seems that I won't be able to do anything anyway.

Both sides has to make some efforts. We already changed the main rule that was asked to be changed, we made the poll about the rules, I really appreciate that Hollywood thanked us for that, but it doesn't really seem to me that it changed anything. As we say in french, you can't have the butter AND the money from the butter.

I really think that this discussion could go much more better if it was done in a more peaceful way.

@Hollywood, sorry, it's really hard to reply to EVERYTHING as there are so much things discussed at the same time. Maybe before making accusations you could just tell me I forgot to answer. I think I always reply to everything people ask me.
So about the NO RULES stuffs, I was refering to this post of MiscastDice :

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All these fucking rules. All these limits. All of this "we can't say this, we can't do this, we can't, we can't, we can't, we must be responsible and upright and. . ." WHAT THE FUCK. REALLY.

This sentence made me think that he would vote the "No rules" option. It wasn't directed at you, but now I understand that, as I was quoting you, you thought it was for you.

Uncontrol · **Reply #117 on:** July 20, 2008, 07:44:57 AM

Lucs, you aren't understanding.

Just because I don't like a lot of rules, does not mean I want to break those rules. I don't even think I cuss THAT much anyways, so that's not the point. The point is that the rules are unnecessary. I've never seen or heard of a problem with people cussing excessively. A lot of the rules, in a lot of our opinions, are rules that no one (that we've seen) asked for. I believe what brought all of this to a head was the PanthereNoire situation. That's what we wanted to be taken care of and instead of Hypno listening to us, he chose to implement other rules. I'm not sure what he hoped would happen with these new rules, the new rules have done more harm than good and has just added to the tension between the members of the board.

Also, the new rules aren't something that you need to try to figure out if you like, it's not a new brand of Doritos or anything. You can read the rules and decide if you like them from that, there isn't really anything to try. You either like them, or you don't. As far as what Lucs said about the staff being the only ones trying, what exactly are you guys trying? What have you met us half way on? Nothing I can recall. The staff is a lot like the government. A government is put into place to serve its people. The staff is there to serve its members. Not the other way around.

Lucs · **Reply #118 on:** July 20, 2008, 07:57:10 AM

Quote from: Uncontrol on July 20, 2008, 07:44:57 AM

Just because I don't like a lot of rules, does not mean I want to break those rules. I don't even think I cuss THAT much anyways, so that's not the point. The point is that the rules are unnecessary. I've never seen or heard of a problem with people cussing excessively. A lot of the rules, in a lot of our opinions, are rules that no one (that we've seen) asked for. I believe what brought all of this to a head was the PanthereNoire situation. That's what we wanted to be taken care of and instead of Hypno listening to us, he chose to implement other rules. I'm not sure what he hoped would happen with these new rules, the new rules have done more harm than good and has just added to the tension between the members of the board.

I understood that. I'm not saying that everybody who don't agree with the rules want to break them. I just don't see what's the big deal is. Yes there are new rules, it doesn't affect you or most of the members (as I said, we had to applied like twice the new rules since they are there). It's why I said we should give the new rules a try, and see what happens. If you would manage to do that, we could then have a better discussion and make the changes needed.

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Also, the new rules aren't something that you need to try to figure out if you like, it's not a new brand of Doritos or anything. You can read the rules and decide if you like them from that, there isn't really anything to try. You either like them, or you don't. As far as what Lucs said about the staff being the only ones trying, what exactly are you guys trying? What have you met us half way on? Nothing I can recall. The staff is a lot like the government. A government is put into place to serve its people. The staff is there to serve its members. Not the other way around.

Here I don't agree. I gave two examples : changing one of the rules, making the poll.
The forum is not a country. The staff is NOT a governement. We are just X-Japans fans who try to run a forum where we can all enjoy talking. Nobody owes noone anything. We are not serving you. If I am, I'm asking to be paid or to be set back as a regular user

(joke, please don't take that seriously). We should just be talking about the band we like together.

SarahAlex · **Reply #119 on:** July 20, 2008, 10:16:52 AM

Quote from: Lucs on July 20, 2008, 07:57:10 AM

The forum is not a country. The staff is NOT a governement. We are just X-Japans fans who try to run a forum where we can all enjoy talking. Nobody owes noone anything. We are not serving you. If I am, I'm asking to be paid or to be set back as a regular user (joke, please don't take that seriously). We should just be talking about the band we like together.

Not serving us? Well, maybe we finally found out where the problem is.

I mean - no one wants you to polish our shoes or bow to "normal users", that's nonsense. But where do you think the difference between the founders of forums and "the others" is?
People like Hypno were brave and devoted enough to create something they have to take a regular care of and we all know that this job is pretty ungrateful. Running anything you are not paid for is always a form of... a sacrifice.

But this is also the difference - that you overcome your laziness because you want to.
Being a member of a staff should be taken as a deal, a privilege and the proof that people trust you. And yeah, it is a service.

Now, everybody, please, take your tomatoes and prepare it for throwing.