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Offline Anna

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Reply #30 on: June 10, 2008, 10:35:08 AM
Quote
And the Kyubi issue has already been brought up in the mods subforum.


I am certainly glad to hear that, because even though I understand things have been hard for the admins and mods lately, I also believe that if this really is more than our "average forum", then such behaviour should not be encouraged.

Pony rocks!


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #31 on: June 10, 2008, 07:54:27 PM
Quote from: "Hypno"
And now, she can't edit your posts for "ridiculous reasons", as you already know the reasons she can edit them, and act accordingly, righ?

That doesn't whatsoever address the fact that she has never before edited a post for a reason related to actual forum rules.

The problem is not and was not the rules, the problem is that you have an admin who disregards the rules of the forum and instead makes up her own as she goes along.  More rules are not a solution to this problem, especially when the rules are broken by you and Kyubi on the first day of their implementation.  (I'm glad to hear that the Kyubi part is being addressed at least, thank you.)  You can't expect users to respect your rules-- nor can you expect PN to do so-- when you yourself publicly break them, and on a public thread tell a mod that you are allowing her to break them as well.

So, what is being done or has been done about PN herself?  How many second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth chances is she going to get?

And I would still appreciate a reply to the parts of this post of mine that you did not yet address.  When you get time, of course.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Sander

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Reply #32 on: June 10, 2008, 08:25:18 PM
PN got her chance with the new rules. Now, if she will abide by them, she'll continue as an admin, if she doesn't, she won't. I thought it was clear already.

Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote from: "Hypno"
Constructive posts =/= happy-happy posts. And what loophole? Rulebreakers will be dealt with, as the admins/mods see it. This goes for all rulebreakers.

There is a loophole because definition of "constructive" is entirely subjective and is not defined within the rule itself.  I.e., if you don't like someone's tone, you get to decide that they're breaking rule #2.  I've got to hand it to you, that one's pretty brilliant really. ;)
thefreedictionary.com defines "constructive" as "useful and helpful", as in "constructive criticism". Would you like any other words defined to you?

Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote from: "Hypno"
Don't be stupid, you know what I mean. The anti-profanity rule goes for needless using of foul language (etc. "Ooh this song is so motherfuc*ing good./Bleh I don't like that shitty fuc*ed up song."), in sentences where you could easily use normal words instead of swearing. Swearing doesn't make you look cool.

When you ask me to not be stupid, shall I interpet that as "good natured off topic" or as "contructive criticism"? ;)  I mean, I wouldn't want to think that I'm being personally insulted by the same admin who just posted all these rules about respecting other users and not making personal offenses.  Nah, couldn't be that. :)
And frankly, I see no difference between saying "this song is so motherfucking good" and discussing the DTR song lyrics "kiss my motherfucking ass".  I would understand it if this were a Backstreet Boys forum, but why should users not be allowed to repeat the same language that the bands we are discussing use themselves?  Honestly, anyone who's offended by that kind of language should not be listening to X, hide, DTR, etc.
It's constructive criticism. Discussing lyrics and expressing your feelings for a song is different... As in one you discuss lyrics and in the other you... Express your feelings...

And the excuse, that "everyone else is doing it" (well in this case, the guys who write those lyrics), is not something I'd expect from you...

Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote from: "Hypno"
Umm yeah, combine rule #12 and you have a triple standard? The download links are not allowed the private sharing forum. In the future, it might be possible that YM messages will be allowed there, but this is yet uncertain.

Why does this double/triple standard exist?  What's the purpose of it or reasoning behind it?  I'd honestly like to know, as I find it confusing and don't understand the purpose behind it.
It's not a double standard. Downloads are not allowed, YM messages are not allowed. The fact that the first is allowed in the sharing forum and the second isn't, is partly because of technical issues atm, which might be solved in the future.

Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote from: "Hypno"
Because you should not be too lazy. Post the disclosure to your signature, if you think you can't remember to post it every time. Small font is ok.

What I meant was: what is the legal rationale behind it?  You really want everyone to include legal disclaimer in their signatures just because you don't want to make such a disclaimer yourself for the forum?  I've never seen that on a forum before (and I've been on many of them), frankly it makes no sense to me why you would want to require your users to go through all of that.  It seems very arbitrary.
Yes. If you stroll around the forum you might notice quite a few users already accepting the rule and abiding by it. Not that hard for them. And it's always nice to see new things on the internet, no?

Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote from: "Hypno"
What problem? I saw problems in that the rules were unclear and mostly unwritten, so people got confused and posts edited/deleted for reasons they didn't know were wrong. Secondly, as I saw it, you were uncomfortable with admins/mods editing your posts without notification beforehand. That's fixed also. As I said, this is not a spamfest-norules-everythinggoes forum.

Given the two very lengthy threads about the problem at hand, I'm sure you know what problem we're talking about.  You're avoiding the issue.  While I am not you and cannot know what you're thinking or what you mean by all of this (until you tell us, of course), this whole thing gives the impression of someone who is taking advantage of forum unrest to force completely unrelated rules upon his forum.  Please don't assume that your users are too stupid to realize when they've been "baited and switched" into irrelevant rules they didn't ask for.
This seems like a conspiracy theory... I assure you, I'm not using the unrest for any "unrelated rules". Most of the rules were here already in an unwritten form (thanks to my lazyness).



I hope this satisfies you for now. Feel free to use up another half an hour of my life with posts that won't change anything, but seem like you have taken up a personal crusade.

This is my administrator color.


Offline Lucs

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Reply #33 on: June 10, 2008, 08:30:37 PM
I really think we should just wait one or two months before discussing about all that again.

As almost everybody said before, we should just see how things goes with these new rules.


Offline darkcat21

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Reply #34 on: June 10, 2008, 08:32:19 PM
You wouldn't be wasting that half an hour everyday if you had already sacked PN from the adminstrator group, which is what almost everyone asked for.

hi there


Offline Zwanster

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Reply #35 on: June 10, 2008, 08:42:21 PM
Whats this about a legal disclaimer in signatures? I'm falling way behind on all these new rules, can somebody fill me in?



Offline Sander

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Reply #36 on: June 10, 2008, 08:52:40 PM
Quote from: "darkcat21"
You wouldn't be wasting that half an hour everyday if you had already sacked PN from the adminstrator group, which is what almost everyone asked for.
Almost everyone? The 'list' Hollywood managed to put together was 30 people, who had even the slightest complaint about PN, mostly neutral people; against 10 people, who were clearly on PNs side. I wouldn't call that 'everyone'.

And no, we are not having a conversation about PN any more.


Quote from: "Zwanster"
Whats this about a legal disclaimer in signatures? I'm falling way behind on all these new rules, can somebody fill me in?
Rule number 12:

Quote
12. Pictures that are under copyright are allowed to be posted on the forum, as long as they add this to their post: „This/these images are posted under the fair rights agreement. Copyright belongs to the respective owners.“ This includes scans of magazines and photo books not available from official stores any more (they are only available from second-hand stores/auction sites/etc). This rule doesn't apply to signatures and avatars.

This is my administrator color.


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #37 on: June 10, 2008, 09:11:16 PM
I said:
Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote
2. Please make constructive posts. A certain amount of good natured off topic is ok, but negative and bantering comments without facts to back them up and direct offenses are not allowed. Constructive criticism is welcomed. This rule is not enforced as harshly in the Offtopic section of the board.

This, combined with the lack of rules about what will be done to bad mods/admins, presents an absolutely fantastic loophole for capricious staff members to do as they will.


You said:
Quote from: "Hypno"
Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote from: "Hypno"
Don't be stupid, you know what I mean.
When you ask me to not be stupid, shall I interpet that as "good natured off topic" or as "contructive criticism"?
It's constructive criticism.


Thank you sir, you prove my point.  I understand that from now on I will also be allowed to call other users "stupid"?

Quote from: "Hypno"
It's not a double standard. Downloads are not allowed, YM messages are not allowed.

Earlier on the thread:
Quote from: "Hypno"
Quote from: "Hollywood"
Rules #10 and #11 present an incredibly strange double-standard.
Umm yeah, combine rule #12 and you have a triple standard?

You already said it was a double-standard.  If you want your rules and the intention behind them to seem credible to users, I constructively, good-naturedly, usefully and helpfully suggest that you make up your mind before contradicting yourself more than necessary. ;)
I still have not received an answer as to why illegal activity 1 (posting Yoshiki's YM messages) is restricted but illegal activity 2 (sharing Yoshiki's copyrighted music) is allowed and encouraged.

As for the photo disclaimer issue, your own rule 13 invalidates any need for photo disclaimers:
Quote
13. Board members are solely responsible for the content of their post. The board owner, administrators and moderators accept no responsibility for any kind of offensive or illegal posts.

If board members are solely responsible for the legality of their posts, what are the photo disclaimers for?  I understand that you are having difficulty managing your forum, and that in times like these it is probably some measure of comfort to exercise your power as an admin in arbitrary and highly visible ways, such as asking forum members to needlessly jump through hoops and include this and that in their posts.  Unfortunately, it does not actually help anyone or benefit the forum (if you were concerned legally about this issue and wanted to help, you could post an image disclaimer for the whole forum, just like this disclaimer you posted in rule 13).  It comes across as petty and gives the impression of a struggling administration losing control over its forum.

Quote from: "Hypno"
Most of the rules were here already in an unwritten form (thanks to my lazyness).

Rules "in an unwritten form" are not rules.  These are new rules, they were not "here already".  Some of them are PN's spontaneously-invented new rules; I suppose their inclusion now as actual rules might be intended as some kind of retroactive claim that PN was enforcing the rules all along (she wasn't).

So, one more inappropriate edit/deletion as she's de-adminned?  Sounds fair, I can live with that.

Quote from: "Hypno"
The 'list' Hollywood managed to put together was 30 people, who had even the slightest complaint about PN, mostly neutral people; against 10 people, who were clearly on PNs side. I wouldn't call that 'everyone'.

Can you think of any other mod or admin that 31 people-- a very high percentage of the active members here-- have "even the slightest complaint" about?

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline SarahAlex

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Reply #38 on: June 10, 2008, 09:13:59 PM
Quote from: "Hypno"
I hope this satisfies you for now. Feel free to use up another half an hour of my life with posts that won't change anything, but seem like you have taken up a personal crusade.


Hypno, please, put that gun down. :wink: By commiting suicide or killing Hollywood you won't solve anything.

I know you didn't establish this forum because you would want to quarrel with others but this is just the "burden" of the main admin - everyone addresses their complains to him. It's surely not a personal crusade.


SarahAlex - the devil's advocate


Offline MiscastDice

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Reply #39 on: June 10, 2008, 10:13:13 PM
Quote from: "SarahAlex"
Quote from: "Hypno"
I hope this satisfies you for now. Feel free to use up another half an hour of my life with posts that won't change anything, but seem like you have taken up a personal crusade.


Hypno, please, put that gun down. :wink: By commiting suicide or killing Hollywood you won't solve anything.

I know you didn't establish this forum because you would want to quarrel with others but this is just the "burden" of the main admin - everyone addresses their complains to him. It's surely not a personal crusade.


Yeah. It's not a personal crusade, it's wanting to keep the nice forum we had before you apparently got cowed into believing PN actually is capable of suing us on Yoshiki's behalf (she's NOT) and winning (hell, ANY libel lawyer could defend that case).



Offline SarahAlex

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Reply #40 on: June 10, 2008, 10:24:09 PM
MistcastDice, dear, you're such a provocateur. :wink:

Are you going to wait until they'll ban you for that signature or would you rather try to act a little bit more... reasonably? :wink:
Yeah, this is your form of a protest but vulgarisms are not related with "cause PN", are they? :)


SarahAlex - the devil's advocate


Offline MiscastDice

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Reply #41 on: June 10, 2008, 10:34:35 PM
Quote from: "SarahAlex"
MistcastDice, dear, you're such a provocateur. :wink:

Are you going to wait until they'll ban you for that signature or would you rather try to act a little bit more... reasonably? :wink:
Yeah, this is your form of a protest but vulgarisms are not related with "cause PN", are they? :)


I guess I could edit.  :twisted:



Offline ferret

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Reply #42 on: June 10, 2008, 10:35:09 PM
Hey, thanks for pointing that out SarahAlex  :)


MiscastDice
Please to edit/delete this line

My posts aren't fucking breaking the fucking law. Don't fucking sue me.

Your posts may not break any laws, but your signature sure DOES break forum rules. If you refuse to change your signature an admin will gladly do that for you and give you a little "present" as well (it will come in red, like this post).

RIP


Offline MiscastDice

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Reply #43 on: June 10, 2008, 10:36:50 PM
Quote from: "ferret"
Hey, thanks for pointing that out SarahAlex  :)


MiscastDice
Please to edit/delete this line

My posts aren't fucking breaking the fucking law. Don't fucking sue me.

Your posts may not break any laws, but your signature sure DOES break forum rules. If you refuse to change your signature an admin will gladly do that for you and give you a little "present" as well (it will come in red, like this post).


sig changed



Offline ferret

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Reply #44 on: June 10, 2008, 10:39:53 PM
Congrats, here and now I give you your first WARNING!

Your attempts to provoke are rather uninspired I must say, but whatever floats your boat.

RIP


Offline MiscastDice

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Reply #45 on: June 10, 2008, 10:42:55 PM
Quote from: "ferret"
Congrats, here and now I give you your first WARNING!

Your attempts to provoke are rather uninspired I must say, but whatever floats your boat.


Why are you warning me? As far as I know, "JRR" isn't a profanity yet, though if their peeps keep behaving as they have, it will be soon enough!

Edited my sig anyway lol.



Offline ferret

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Reply #46 on: June 10, 2008, 10:51:42 PM
It isn't, that's right. But the way you changed your sig is obviously for provocation (of the staff, mainly) which is absolutely unnecessary, you are obviously seeking for an opportunity to start a fight and that is pretty unsocial behaviour. Stop with this JRR crap, and I don't only mean you MiscastDice, EVERYONE who is mentioning them in every goddamn post they make, if this WAS JRR, ALL of you would've been banned by now (I guess, since I haven't really read their rules as the site doesn't interest me, but from everyones dramatic reactions on JRR it must be the forum-hell, I see).


Oh, and thank you for editing your signature one more time, MiscastDice.

RIP


Offline MiscastDice

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Reply #47 on: June 10, 2008, 10:55:31 PM
Quote from: "ferret"
It isn't, that's right. But the way you changed your sig is obviously for provocation (of the staff, mainly) which is absolutely unnecessary, you are obviously seeking for an opportunity to start a fight and that is pretty unsocial behaviour. Stop with this JRR crap, and I don't only mean you MiscastDice, EVERYONE who is mentioning them in every goddamn post they make, if this WAS JRR, ALL of you would've been banned by now (I guess, since I haven't really read their rules as the site doesn't interest me, but from everyones dramatic reactions on JRR it must be the forum-hell, I see).


Actually, I would say Jrock forum hell is like Dante's Hell. Batsu is much of the Ninth Circle, but The Forum That Now Shall Not Be Named is sharing the Ninth and claiming itself to be heaven. LOL



Offline SarahAlex

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Reply #48 on: June 10, 2008, 11:03:41 PM
Yeah, this signature is fine, MistcastDice, thank you again. :wink:

And though you write: "I am not hide.", you two have something in common - trouble making. :D


SarahAlex - the devil's advocate


Offline MiscastDice

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Reply #49 on: June 10, 2008, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: "SarahAlex"
Yeah, this signature is fine, MistcastDice, thank you again. :wink:

And though you write: "I am not hide.", you two have something in common - trouble making. :D


 :wink: Now, if only I had mad guitar skillz. (Sadly, I don't. I sing a little, but my main artistic talents are writing and photography. . .)



Offline Hurley

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Reply #50 on: June 10, 2008, 11:10:47 PM
Quote from: "Unfinished"
Ah geez give Hypno a breaks peoples; you complain because you want things changed, he changes things(the rules) and you're still complaining...

in my opinion

I don't think anyone really asked to change the rules, so that's why people are complaining. You stop complaining about the complaining ;P


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #51 on: June 10, 2008, 11:28:03 PM
Quote from: "Hurley"
Quote from: "Unfinished"
Ah geez give Hypno a breaks peoples; you complain because you want things changed, he changes things(the rules) and you're still complaining...

in my opinion

I don't think anyone really asked to change the rules, so that's why people are complaining.

Yeah, exactly as Hurley said.  Many people were looking for a solution to a specific problem, but no one (that I remember) asked for different rules.  In fact several people specifically said that they didn't want additional rules, or that they didn't want a stricter forum, or that they thought the forum had grown too strict already.  I don't remember even one person saying they'd like more or stricter rules for normal users.

And Hypno said in the opening post on this thread to "tell us what you think" in regard to the new rules.  So, people are doing so, and given the circumstances I think it's only logical that the response to the new rules is not especially positive.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline ferret

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Reply #52 on: June 10, 2008, 11:42:22 PM
Quote from: "Hollywood"
Yeah, exactly as Hurley said. Many people were looking for a solution to a specific problem, but no one (that I remember) asked for different rules.


That's what the rules are for, to (hopefully) solve THAT one specific problem (Hypno has already addressed that in his previous post, I believe). You guys might not have noticed, but the staff has double as many rules to follow as the other users, and we're only complaining half as much  :P

You can complain about the rules, but please do it HERE, not all over the board in every thread writing "approved by JRR, lolz" in every post, I see that as "asking for trouble" when in fact you wanted less trouble in this forum.

RIP


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #53 on: June 11, 2008, 12:47:12 AM
Quote from: "ferret"
You can complain about the rules, but please do it HERE, not all over the board in every thread writing "approved by JRR, lolz" in every post, I see that as "asking for trouble" when in fact you wanted less trouble in this forum.

I've made fun of JRR several times, but it wasn't in "every" thread, nor in "every" post.

This is something I don't understand, though: what's so bad (to you) about poking fun at JRR?  If people here don't like JRR and say so, so what?  If this forum supposedly has no affiliation with JRR, then I don't see why JRR jokes should be considered any more offensive than any other recurring jokes that have gone on around here ("The Guy", etc.).  Most people seem to be either amused by the JRR jokes or don't care, or presumably there wouldn't be so many people making them.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline MiscastDice

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Reply #54 on: June 11, 2008, 01:41:41 AM
Quote from: "Hollywood"
Quote from: "ferret"
You can complain about the rules, but please do it HERE, not all over the board in every thread writing "approved by JRR, lolz" in every post, I see that as "asking for trouble" when in fact you wanted less trouble in this forum.

I've made fun of JRR several times, but it wasn't in "every" thread, nor in "every" post.

This is something I don't understand, though: what's so bad (to you) about poking fun at JRR?  If people here don't like JRR and say so, so what?  If this forum supposedly has no affiliation with JRR, then I don't see why JRR jokes should be considered any more offensive than any other recurring jokes that have gone on around here ("The Guy", etc.).  Most people seem to be either amused by the JRR jokes or don't care, or presumably there wouldn't be so many people making them.


THIS. And if I want to bash JRR in my sig or profile or avatar, why shouldn't I be allowed to? As long as I am not making any overt statements accusing JRR of half the shit I suspect, it is my opinion as a user of an unaffiliated site, and not something the forum could be sued for or even necessarily hated on by Yoshiki for. . .



Offline Madjhatter

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Reply #55 on: June 11, 2008, 05:27:21 AM
I agree with Hollywood, this forum is not affiliated them (don't get any ideas either please) so why do people care if we say things about JRR.

Besides, seeing what JRR has become (quite uptight amoung many things) of course things are going to be said.

~Live boldly. Take risks. Make somebody say, "what the hell was that all about?"~


Offline ferret

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Reply #56 on: June 11, 2008, 09:29:34 AM
Hey, I find every religion ridiculous, marriage is a crappy concept imo and Yoshiki is actually my least favourite member in X, but I don't write it in my sig as some people might be offended by that. We are not affiliated, however many users here are also users there (and, believe it or not, some even like it there?) and might get offended if you write crap about that site/board. Also this forum is for discussing X-Japan, not JRR, but JRR seems to get more attention than X lately, even in X related threads (in the offtopic it's somewhat tolerable).

I myself have made fun of the JRR forums (not because of their administration, though), but that was in the SPAM thread, which is where the JRR talk belongs.

Quote
I've made fun of JRR several times, but it wasn't in "every" thread, nor in "every" post.


You know what I mean, it's all over the damn board and that's annoying and has nothing to do with X discussion.

RIP


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #57 on: June 11, 2008, 07:17:52 PM
Quote from: "ferret"
Hey, I find every religion ridiculous, marriage is a crappy concept imo and Yoshiki is actually my least favourite member in X, but I don't write it in my sig as some people might be offended by that. We are not affiliated, however many users here are also users there (and, believe it or not, some even like it there?) and might get offended if you write crap about that site/board. Also this forum is for discussing X-Japan, not JRR, but JRR seems to get more attention than X lately, even in X related threads (in the offtopic it's somewhat tolerable).

But given that JRR is supposedly run by Yoshiki-- or, at the very least, Yoshiki is closely affiliated with it-- how is it even offtopic to talk about one of Yoshiki's projects on an X forum?  In this respect it's hardly any different from talking about Extasy Records or something.

I also think that when news is posted, discussion of the reliability of the news source is entirely appropriate.  This type of thing is no different from the comments of "I don't trust Japanese tabloids" or whatever else.

I just don't get why, from either of these two angles, JRR gets such special protection here.

As for people who disagree with someone's post potentially getting offended... honestly, if it's come to the point where everyone has to curb their opinions because someone "might get offended", then this forum is as good as dead.  The entire point of a forum is to express one's opinion and discuss it with others.  Naturally, some opinions will not match up, and there will be disagreements-- and that should be just fine.  On an X board especially.  X has never, ever been about holding yourself back because someone might not like your opinion.  That's like the opposite of X.

Why NOT write in your sig that you think religion is ridiculous, marriage is crappy and Yoshiki is your least-favorite X member?  They're all simply your opinions and I don't see any reason why you shouldn't express them if you want.

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline Lucs

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Reply #58 on: June 11, 2008, 07:22:09 PM
Quote from: "Hollywood"

Why NOT write in your sig that you think religion is ridiculous, marriage is crappy and Yoshiki is your least-favorite X member?  They're all simply your opinions and I don't see any reason why you shouldn't express them if you want.


Here are some reasons :

Respect
"Savoir vivre" (well behavior ?)

Talking shit about JRR (or anything else) is just childish provocation. So just stop it and everything is gonna be fine. Just maybe show us only ONCE that you want to make things go better and not only complain all the time. Thank you.


Offline Maya

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Reply #59 on: June 11, 2008, 07:24:10 PM
I thought the upsetting thing about the JRR-comments werde just ... eh, that they are mostly repetitive and unneccessary. Everyone can have his opinion, but "omg, second JRR!" in EVERY thread where any mod does ... ANYTHING ... that's just really annoying (even for me, so how must the mods/admins think about it? =.=).

I don't think anyone says "Don't say anything bad about JRR!!!", but that every third thread has to come to a point where JRR suddenly appears out of nowwhere without a reason ... well, you know :/

About the new rules ... well ... I think no. 12 e.g. is extremely unneccessary - ot at least I don't understand the urgency for it. (Feel free to explain this to me, because I have never seen something like this before in any forum, too.)

And I don't think the rules have anything to do with the problem mentioned before ... but well, lets see how it develops, I'm tired of arguing. (+ the whole topic).

Maya

Wild passion~

"C'mon Yoshiki, you can do this ... if you do it fast, maybe noone notices it's happening ..."
"Eeeek, he kissed me xD"