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Religion or whatever you believe in

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Offline xScQ

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Reply #60 on: August 22, 2009, 11:58:55 AM
I am First Nations. (...) I have seen, heard, and experienced miracles and beings beyond scientific explanation.

This is really the first time I have heard of this term or religious belief. Would it be too much to ask for the sharing of one of the stories that you experienced? I am quite interested.



Offline MIHO

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Reply #61 on: August 22, 2009, 12:00:24 PM
I am First Nations. (...) I have seen, heard, and experienced miracles and beings beyond scientific explanation.

This is really the first time I have heard of this term or religious belief. Would it be too much to ask for the sharing of one of the stories that you experienced? I am quite interested.

Me too, actually.
I've always been interested in other cultures and beliefs.



Offline BloodofBathory

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Reply #62 on: August 22, 2009, 11:06:07 PM
I am First Nations. (...) I have seen, heard, and experienced miracles and beings beyond scientific explanation.

This is really the first time I have heard of this term or religious belief. Would it be too much to ask for the sharing of one of the stories that you experienced? I am quite interested.

Okay...hmmm...you can email me if you want some serious details. For example :P A few years ago my mother was diagnosed with a tumor on her womb.  She part took in a religious ceremony and went to see a medicine man.  After that she went back the doctor and was told her tumor was gone... :D
Another is I had a cousin in the states who was in a car accident, she was a complete vegetable when me and my parents went down to see her. The doctors told my uncle that she would never wake up, and even if she did her brain was damaged.  My uncle is an elder as well as a Medicine Man. He told my dad that the doctors are not Creator, and they don't control this world.  My uncle took my cousin through 4 different ceremonies, and the next time we went down, she was walking around and talking like nothing had happened!

When I get sick I always get it in my throat, so I can barely swallow, it feels like sandpaper.  But anyway I was sick one night and I was lying in bed, I couldn't sleep to save my life because of the pain, not to mention my nose was plugged and it was hard to breath through my mouth. But anyway, I always lock my door at night because my younger sister has a habit of sneaking into my room and sleeping with me.  So I desperatly trying to sleep and suffering at the same time when suddenly someone blew on the back of my neck.  It was hard like when your putting out a flame.  Then I didn't care about the pain because I was scared shitless... lol.  But that didn't matter because after that I heard a humming noise before I fell asleep. The next morning I woke up completly healthy.


There's a few, but if you'd like to hear more...email me. Later!

The seven vices I love ~ They are all sweet poison ~ Born from my mouth


Offline Envenom

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Reply #63 on: August 23, 2009, 02:49:08 AM
My people learned first hand the suffering and wrongdoings of the Christian religion, in residential schools and the 'purification of the lands' by raping, murdering, and kidnapping millions of people believed to be savages and godless. Our way of life was even outlawed, from our religion to our spoken language.
Dispite the bitterness of my people for these atrocities, I place my blame in those who wrote the Bible.
The Bible itself has been re-written many times since it's first publishment and is most likely nothing what Jesus wanted to be heard and done by those he lead.


I'm sorry, but that is bullshit. They were murdered by people using christianity for their own goals, like to increase their wealth or whatever. You make it sound like a devout christian nowadays should repent for another man's sins. And would you happen to have any sources regarding how many times the bible was, as you claim, rewritten? As far as I know that isn't common knowledge.

And not to sound disrepectful, but when someone's brain is blown to pieces praying, performing a ceremony or saying mass isn't going to do anything.

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Offline BloodofBathory

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Reply #64 on: August 23, 2009, 07:54:06 AM
Okay...

They were murdered by people using christianity for their own goals, like to increase their wealth or whatever.
I was giving ONE example. Yes, there were many people of the past and of the present who used religion for thier own gain. It was used to murder my people so that European countries could aution our land and use our natural resources since they used most of thier own.  It was used to brainwash our children into thinking they DESERVED what they were given and that we were heathens, godless, and going to burn in hell...
I know people used and still do use the church and the cross for thier own political, personal, and financial gain and it's disgusting as it continues today on reservations FAR from the media or the world's eye. And on other parts of the world.

You make it sound like a devout christian nowadays should repent for another man's sins.
I don't recall saying that man today should repay for the pasts mistakes. In fact my point was that the wrong doings in the past ARE NOT to be placed on the people of today. Maybe except for those who continue to madly cling to thier beliefs and use it to harm others.

And would you happen to have any sources regarding how many times the bible was, as you claim, rewritten? As far as I know that isn't common knowledge.
I'm well aware of the fact that it's not common knowledge...even though there are several different Bibles used by several diffrent branches of this religion.
However to quote as specific line that was rewritten several times is in the King James bible. It went from "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live" to "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
The original Hebrew text was not male nor female inclusive, and spoke of herbalists who used poison to kill for money – and ancient hit-man, if you will. It turned to fit the times, which at this time of change was the prosacution of wiccans.
If you wish you can study the subject yourself, and find your own truth in the matter.

And not to sound disrepectful, but when someone's brain is blown to pieces praying, performing a ceremony or saying mass isn't going to do anything.
You obviously didn't read my last post very well. As I said that the suffering such as your example is not proof of god's inexistance. But is proof of humanities existance, humans are a cruel species and it is thier choice whether or not to blow someone's brain out. As I said a downfall to the free will that Creator has given us.
I also believe it is human's ego that drives him to believe that this time now is our only time that matters. If someone dies for thier belief, and dies praying for it, then
no doubt there is something better waiting for him/her in eternity.  And I didn't say that praying would mean a movie miracle such as almost getting shot then being saved. I meant ones such as what happened to my mother and cousin.  But I'm not Creator so I don't really know what can happen.


I'm sorry, but that is bullshit.
That's just rude...but at least you apolagized...so I forgive you.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 07:57:30 AM by BloodofBathory »

The seven vices I love ~ They are all sweet poison ~ Born from my mouth


Offline xScQ

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Reply #65 on: August 23, 2009, 09:53:39 AM
As an unbeliever it will always be strange reading a religious statement involving any creator or god. So forgive me for not accepting your experience as true just yet. I usually ask a religious person to share his or her stories however because I am still open to anything, and it generally interests me to find out how other peoples beliefs work for them. The religion vs. science war will perhaps be an eternal debate for that matter and it suits me better to stay reticent. Thanks for your stories though!



Offline xScQ

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Reply #66 on: August 23, 2009, 12:20:50 PM
I really do believe that not thinking for yourself and just believing what you read, has been a base for many of mankind's stupidest mistakes.

I agree. This is exactly my view until convinced otherwise.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/clarence_darrow/bible_absurdities.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/which_way.html



Offline BloodofBathory

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Reply #67 on: August 23, 2009, 11:22:09 PM
I agree with you Ami and xScQ.  this is also my view of the bible. 
And I do have to say that I find it strange people think other's who are religious don't believe in science.  I myself have always believed the Big Bang Theory, and that the egg came before the chicken, not that some mighty being reached down and left a full grown chicken there for the taking...lol.  While I have grown up listening to myths and legends, there are some in my view that are a bit pretentious and so I ususally turn to science to answer these questions.  However I also believe that science itself was created because the entity that created us foresaw humanities curiousity. The need and want to know. 
Religion and science have never been seperate to me, they actually fit together quite well.
I've always loved the legends of Greece and Egypt as well as First Nations myths, but I don't usually take them as fact.
You're welcome for the stories.

The seven vices I love ~ They are all sweet poison ~ Born from my mouth


Offline madrigal

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Reply #68 on: August 24, 2009, 12:09:36 AM
I really liked your stories, so thank you for sharing :)

And would you happen to have any sources regarding how many times the bible was, as you claim, rewritten? As far as I know that isn't common knowledge.

I've always been interested in history, so I have a few facts about this.
As previously said, the bible has continually been a tool, to mean and say what certain individuals wanted it to mean and say.

The first time a "real" bible was put together was only in 382 AD during the famed Council of Rome (under Damascus) where they decided what would go into the bible and what would be omitted. One of the big descisions was choosing which gospels would go in. The ones that were chosen, were obviously picked because they presented the "right" image of the church and Christianity. All the other gospels were rejected. This caused many of them to get lost (although by 382 some were already fragmented or missing) and it made the texts generally accepted as being less worthy and there were even times in history where citing certain gospels (such as the gospel of Judas) was a high form of heresy.

Throughout history the bible has been copied (often by hand), translated, rewritten etc so that nowadays there are many different versions of the bible floating around, that I'll just post a link with a pretty complete list of the editions. The most used being The Authorised King James Version, The New King James Version, The New International Version, and others. To be clear, this is about the English versions of the bible alone... If you were to include other languages, the list would be pretty impressive.

This last part in my opnion only. If people were to take the bible as a book with beautiful stories that can inspire faith in religious people, than that's fine. But if you take it literally, then that's when you start creating a lot of problems... The bible isn't a sience book and yet there are many people out there who take whatever version they have and truly believe God and/or Jezus said this or that. Not only does that create problems between them and people who aren't christian, but even christians end up fighting over who has the right words of God in their book.

I may be going a little far here, as I am not christian, and I don't mean to discriminate. But I really do believe that not thinking for yourself and just believing what you read, has been a base for many of mankind's stupidest mistakes.

First, about the "rejected gospels", at the time when the bible was put together there were a few gospels around of which many were written long after the eye wittnesses were all dead which doesn't make them very trustworthy. So what they did was to choose four gospels, that were all written when eye witnesses were still around, and have these as standards cause they were the most trustworthy. So really no "choosing of the ones fitting the catholic church the best". More like neglecting the ones written over hundreds of years after Jesus' death and resurrection. So choosing the most trustworthy.

Secondly, sure - mistakes can be made while copying books - but comparsions have been made between really old versions of the bible (from the old testament in caves in Israel if I remember correctly) and versions from a couple of hundred of years later and newer and newer, and they have found that the differences aren't really as many as you'd think! The were actually really good at copying books.

About how to read the bible. Different people have different ways of looking at this. For most people it has to be either a book of fairytales or a book of science. BUT, what mustn't be forgotten is that the bible is a book that is written to be read in all times. Not just 1000 years ago, but also today. If it had been written only to be read today it would have been written differently - and the same if it was ment to only have been read 1000 years ago. It's a book to be read by all kinds of people and therefore it's written in the way it's written.

Unfortunately, christianity has been used for peoples own interests and loads of bad stuff. The focus has unfortunately been taken from core of the christian faith more than once - which is not fair! Even though people have done bad stuff in it's name - the core is still the same. God himself came down as a man and died for our sins. Everyone of us are sinners in the need of God's mercy. Jesus Christ is our savior and the only way to God. Whatever bad has been done in the name of christianity - it's all really about putting your faith in Jesus that he will forgive your sins so that we may have new life in him after we have died.



Offline madrigal

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Reply #69 on: August 24, 2009, 08:56:52 PM
First, about the "rejected gospels", at the time when the bible was put together there were a few gospels around of which many were written long after the eye wittnesses were all dead which doesn't make them very trustworthy. So what they did was to choose four gospels, that were all written when eye witnesses were still around, and have these as standards cause they were the most trustworthy. So really no "choosing of the ones fitting the catholic church the best". More like neglecting the ones written over hundreds of years after Jesus' death and resurrection. So choosing the most trustworthy.

You make a good point here. Many other gospels were rejected because they couldn't be trusted, but then the 4 gospels we know today were also not that believable as a source of facts. As always, anyone can find faith in them, if that's what you seek.

The gospel according to Mark, which supposedly is the earliest, was written (guessed to be written) around 70AD. This was followed by the gospels of Matthew and Luke, written probably sometime between 70AD and 100AD. And John's was probably the last one written, at the end of the century.

There is a high possibility that Mark's, Matthew's and Luke's gospels share a common source, or that the later two, were based partialy on Mark. The reasoning being that there are just too many similar passages. Either way, most people during the time couldn't write, so until the stories were written down, they were most likely passed by word of mouth. And that likely made the stories undergo small, but frequent alterations, until it was probably hard to tell what had been added, and what had not.

Also, if you think of it, the writers of these gospels were early christians, at the time that christianity was expanding. The whole point of the gospels was to inspire people to believe in Jezus and to join the faith. The tools of almost all religious writers at the time was to include symbolic elements, such as magical numbers, places, dates etc. The romans, whom the gospels for a large part were for, as that's the birth place of early christianity, were used to these symbolisms, from their own beliefs, and it's logical that when trying to teach a faith, you use the right words for your listeners.

Another last interesting fact: The 4 canonical gospels were originally untitled and anonymous until 180AD when suddenly they were given the names that we now know them by. So it's possible that some of the gospels may have been written by Jezus's actual disciples, but perhaps that too, is just to inspire faith.

The four gospels were actually used very early on by the early christians! What about them makes them not as believable as a source of fact? And just as with the rest of the bible they are not written as a collection of facts but as testimonies.

The writer of the gospel of Mark is according to the tradition the assistant of Peter (since he probably couldn't write as he was only a fisherman), and Mark himself is mentioned in at least one (don't know how many) of Pauls letters in the new testament. But writing the gospels were probably sort of a "plan B" since most of the early christian leaders were absolutely sure that Christ was to return during their lifetime - eg Paul.

The "small frequent alterations" are things I've never heard of but it's easy to imagine that such a thing could happen. Though most of the stories were passed on by the disciples while teaching and preaching and since a lot of people that were around Jesus still were around when the gospels were brought to use any big and vivid "alterations" would probably have been corrected by one of the christian leaders e g Paul who frequently wrote letters to the different christian parishes.

About the dates - they are very disputed and some things point on the fact that they are written earlier than you say. Which only makes it more likely that disciples and eyewitnesses were still around.

About how the gospels were written - can all to well have been affected by where where they were written and to whom it was ment to reach. E g I heard that the gospel of John was written to for the greeks - and that's just logical but has more to do with what style of writing you use and not the content of what you write (eg the beginning of the gospel of John talks of the word - logogs - a very important thing to the filosofical greeks). You don't write a children's book with buraucratic text and you don't write an instruction manual with children's lanugage - but you don't change the actual content.

But one must also take into concideration that the christians were persecuted by the romans, and trying to spread the gospel was a thing you did with a high risk for your life.

And about the names - I've never heard that they didn't get their names until then. I have heard though of earlier accounts of the names of the gospels so I guess that's disputable. But it's not that long a time though ca 100 years. And I guess the names of the authors weren't the most important thing, but at least there must have been a traditional knowledge of who wrote which!



Offline xScQ

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Reply #70 on: November 05, 2009, 10:37:35 PM
I am First Nations.

Did you catch Ray Mears' Northern Wilderness? It's about the fur trades and knowledge of the First Nations in and around the Boreal forrest. It's really interesting!



Offline cherrybeary520x

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Reply #71 on: November 06, 2009, 02:39:29 AM
My goodness, this is a little hard for me to understand, for I am still a little too young to understand these things. I, am catholic. Just recently, the place I live in recieved a relic of Mary Magdelene's bone, that is what they say. It came from.....France I think. I am not sure if it really is her bone or not. Thousands of people came and prayed for her. They knelt down and kissed the relic, which was in a case. Human bones.....from a person that lived over 2000 years ago.....I also watched a TV special where Sister Lucia from Portugal encountered the Virgin Mary when she was a young girl. She said that there were 3 secrets or something. Um.......Something about....."If the world does not stop offending my son(Jesus Christ),...." And I forgot the rest. The 3 secrets happened to be bad things, like war and the like. The first one might've been World War I, the second might've been World War II. The third,.....could be the near outbreak of nuclear destuction. Something about Cuba and communism. It said the the Book of Revelation that a third of the stars were gone. A third of everything was gone...A third of the world was ruled by communism.....All of this I just learned of last night. Um...So I am catholic, and I believe in the God Almighty.



Offline BloodofBathory

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Reply #72 on: November 08, 2009, 04:37:14 PM
I am First Nations.

Did you catch Ray Mears' Northern Wilderness? It's about the fur trades and knowledge of the First Nations in and around the Boreal forrest. It's really interesting!

I see it around, but don't really watch it...

The seven vices I love ~ They are all sweet poison ~ Born from my mouth


Offline iluvpinkspider

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Reply #73 on: November 09, 2009, 04:54:58 PM
i am a christian, but i am like the most non-christian christian you'll ever meet. i believe in god, but i rarely go to church, i don't pray, i occasionally say the lord's name in vain (it slips out; i don't do it on purpose!) and the only part of the bible i read is revelations...

If you could have told me everything
You would have found what love is
For now I will try to live for you and for me
I will try to live with love, with dreams,
and forever with tears

RIP hide! December 13, 1964-May 2, 1998


Offline nb

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Reply #74 on: February 09, 2019, 09:51:07 PM
I have a really deep meaning about religion in general but tbh I don't want to share it. Let me just drop two lines:

Do I believe in god? No.
Do I think there is a good? Well, I don't know.


positively unsure。