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People who hated the Concert

Kihl · 52943

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Offline Matthias

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Reply #60 on: April 08, 2008, 09:46:09 AM
Let's say he was not unconscious but he broke down, if that's better for you *g* So I think his breakdown was not staged but it was real.
First when I read about it in the live-ticker I thought, "Yeah, another Yoshiki-Drama-Queen-Moment, come on, we've all see that a hundred times before, get up". But after seeing it myself and reading the comments about how less sleep he had the nights before and how much pressure he must have had onto his shoulders I think this breakdown was for real. He pushed himself to get the drumpart of Art of Life done and then when he wanted to stand up his body just said "No no, my friend, enough for today" and that's it.
I don't know if that's the truth, but at least that is what I believe.  :wink:



Offline Anna

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Reply #61 on: April 08, 2008, 10:08:30 AM
Quote
Also, I'm not 100% sure, but when you faint...you're unconscious meaning eyes go closed. <_<


I meant that the whites of your eyes are often still visible, which was Yoshiki's case - I think. Never mind though, sorry for adding up unnecessary info.  :P  :)

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Offline nage

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Reply #62 on: April 08, 2008, 10:43:05 AM
Where the hell is that link to KURI's blog when I need it?!

IT WAS NOT STAGED.

And why does everyone need to discuss it anyway?!


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Offline ferret

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Reply #63 on: April 08, 2008, 10:47:40 AM
Quote from: "nage"

And why does everyone need to discuss it anyway?!


Because not everyone believes it wasn't staged.

It's like when you lie often to your teacher and after a while he doesn't believe you a word, no matter truth or lie.

Same with Yoshiki's fainting. He's done it so often for the effect, some people become sceptical.

RIP


Offline Hollywood

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Reply #64 on: April 08, 2008, 10:54:45 AM
Quote from: "Uncontrol"
Of course only Yoshiki (and his doctor) knows, but that doesn't stop us from speculating about it on the internet. :P

Oh yeah, of course.  Sorry, I didn't mean that in a "don't speculate on the internet" way-- quite the opposite in fact. ;)  I meant it more like "I disagree personally, but I don't mind if people speculate, because I don't automatically trust 'official' sources to be the absolute truth either", etc.

@nage, But what's wrong with discussing it?  I mean, yeah, it's not the first discussion on the subject, but if people want to-- why not?  It was a pretty dramatic finale to the first night of X Japan's reunion and I'm sure there will always be speculation as to what exactly happened and why.

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Offline Anna

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Reply #65 on: April 08, 2008, 10:59:24 AM
Quote

Same with Yoshiki's fainting. He's done it so often for the effect, some people become sceptical.


Well, I don't think it was done for effect that many times...I'm at work now, so cannot check, but I bought one of the interview books and there he says it's real in vast majority of cases, because he considers is his goal to drum so hard that he won't be able to walk away properly after it's finished, hinting he would be dissatisfied if he could.

As for his recent collapse during the first night, I really don't doubt it was real. But at the same time, I understand some people doubt it despite mentioned blog. Because, to be honest, the blogs explains it pretty well and I believe it (though mainly because of what I saw on my very own eyes), but is it a real proof? Not really. It's just a reasonable explanation. And so, many people will believe Yoshiki was really exhausted to the point of collapsing that night (as I do) - and many won't and people will discuss it until everybody gets tired. Period. Nothing wrong about that, as long as they don't really insult Yoshiki.

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Offline ferret

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Reply #66 on: April 08, 2008, 11:05:12 AM
Quote from: "Anna"
Quote

Same with Yoshiki's fainting. He's done it so often for the effect, some people become sceptical.

Well, I don't think it was done for effect that many times...I'm at work now, so cannot check, but I bought one of the interview books and there he says it's real in vast majority of cases, because he considers is his goal to drum so hard that he won't be able to walk away properly after it's finished, hinting he would be dissatisfied if he could.


I don't doubt he was exhausted, but there's no need to stand up 20 times, fall down, crawl, stand up, etc. He as well could just sit/lie there until it got better and THEN stand up. For me that's just acting.

RIP


Offline Anna

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Reply #67 on: April 08, 2008, 11:10:47 AM
Quote
I don't doubt he was exhausted, but there's no need to stand up 20 times, fall down, crawl, stand up, etc. He as well could just sit/lie there until it got better and THEN stand up. For me that's just acting.


Might be, yeah. Might not be, though. Hard to imagine for me, but I guess your legs wobble, too, and head is spinning and such (I remember how Yoshiki said that he would usually get pretty sick and vomit after such hard drumming, sometimes much to the despair of the staff).  It's not all that simple.
But yeah, I respect Your opinion, ferret.  :)

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Offline Sander

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Reply #68 on: April 08, 2008, 12:19:30 PM
I still think the main piece of evidence is the staff carrying him away... I mean THAT hasn't happened before (except for the times he really broke something...), has it?

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Offline nage

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Reply #69 on: April 08, 2008, 12:45:53 PM
Once he was carried on the stretcher.. so yeah, he's obviously faking it all the time... hpmf...

@Hollywood: I just think it's sad that people doubt this... that they need to discuss this at all. What's good about it? are we going to laugh, thinking everything's ok? that no, this has never had appened before? that he doesn't have any health problems? that he doesn't have to wear that thing for his neck and wrists..? so we rather go with the fact that everything's ok? really just thinking it was staged? oh yeah.. that'd be nice...

this is ridiculous, sorry.... I have enough facts for thinking it was real. And I know what it is to faint. So what I saw would be enough for me too.


May X be with you!


Offline Anna

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Reply #70 on: April 08, 2008, 12:46:19 PM
I think it did, but one can often see the staff waiting nearby, so that he could collapse into their arms like a sack of potatoes (pardon the comparsion :P) once he's off the stage.  
Again, in that interview, he sort of complained how sometimes his hair get tangled into the set and that it hurts when they are trying to pick him up and carry him away.

On the other hand, there is that video on Youtube from March 1996, when Yoshiki got badly injured during Dahlia tour and at that time, he walked away by himself.

But as it was said before, only Yoshiki himself and his staff know and honestly, I don't expect him to be bothered enough to feel necessary to prove himself to anybody. :) And in my opinion, there's no need to. He did his fucking best at the concerts.  8)
Quote


Once he was carried on the stretcher.. so yeah, he's obviously faking it all the time... hpmf...


Nobody claims that, so let's not stir waters again, okay?  :D

Pony rocks!


Offline nage

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Reply #71 on: April 08, 2008, 12:54:28 PM
Here: READ


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Offline Anna

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Reply #72 on: April 08, 2008, 12:55:53 PM
Yeah, I've read that.
But that's not really related to X-freaks, is it?

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Offline nage

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Reply #73 on: April 08, 2008, 12:57:39 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Yeah, I've read that.
But that's not really related to X-freaks, is it?

Does it have to be? O_o It's about what's discussed here now...


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Offline Anna

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Reply #74 on: April 08, 2008, 01:02:05 PM
Well, we have one sort of discussion here and personally, that's the only I care about. If I wanted to argue over there or at JRR, I would go there. But I'm somehow fond of this board and the way we discuss things here, so bringing a sort of out-of-the-blue perspective into this debate felt a bit... well, weird.

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Offline ferret

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Reply #75 on: April 08, 2008, 01:16:35 PM
Quote from: "nage"
Here: READ


The post and most of the comments are pretty one sided, and that "religion" statement works the other way round, as well. (this forum has evidence of that)

RIP


Offline nage

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Reply #76 on: April 08, 2008, 02:35:50 PM
Quote from: "Anna"
Well, we have one sort of discussion here and personally, that's the only I care about. If I wanted to argue over there or at JRR, I would go there. But I'm somehow fond of this board and the way we discuss things here, so bringing a sort of out-of-the-blue perspective into this debate felt a bit... well, weird.

There are the facts about the circumstances during which happened what we're discussing. That's what I wanted to show. Not the debate below.


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Offline jigokugal

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Reply #77 on: April 08, 2008, 02:41:21 PM
You could read the other side of the opinions from the link posted at the first page of this thread.
I'm tired already with this issue and opinions and talks regarding this matter. It will be endless and by the end of the day only anger & dissatisfaction (in any level) are left.
Speaking up your opinions is ok as long as not influencing people to follow your path or else the debate getting too ridiculous to even be read by a 10 year old.
As my side, I believe in the blog Kuri posted (inc by puting aside any subjective feelings).

 jigokugal


Offline Anna

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Reply #78 on: April 08, 2008, 02:41:57 PM
But I was referring to the "faking all the time" thing. I said nobody is really claiming that, period.

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Offline nage

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Reply #79 on: April 08, 2008, 02:46:19 PM
Ok.

I'll shut up now. :)


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Offline X-J

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Reply #80 on: April 08, 2008, 09:35:04 PM
Looking at it from a perspective of intellectual history and philosophy, my favourite fields, I would say that generally, a sceptical gloom strongly pervades the West, especially America and anglo-american culture (meaning US and UK and countries that closely emulate, such as Finland :roll: ), as to how "genuine" can an artist be in her performance. We've been so much marinated in commerciality, entertainment, false idols and downright dishonesty just to gain that many extra bucks that it is difficult to conceive of anyone "in the business" doing something "straight from the heart" any longer. Time and again has there been calculation just to maximise the profit and monopolise on people's popularity.

However, I think the Japanese culture is somewhat (refreshingly) different in this aspect. My knowledge of it is somewhat limited, but I think Martin Heidegger, for one, has pointed out that the Japanese do not think like (especially) the anglo-americans. I think one arena where this manifests itself is in calculability on the one hand, rationality on the other.

Yoshiki's performance does not seem down-to-earth and "controlled" in the least. On the contrary, there seems something innocent, chaotic and naive about it that can very rarely be found within angloamerican society. Indeed, innocent, child-like acting and thinking is often hailed as foolish and stupid: in a fantasy series by American author George R. R. Martin, there's a very naive female character with her head in the clouds. She gets loads of sh*t for this world-view from the readers, with only scattered sympathisers here and there.

In reality, what most people don't realise is that this mechanist-rational austere culture has certainly not been with us since forever: it only "won" in England and America after Darwin and rage for technocracy since late-19th century.

Since then, many thinkers, especially in Germany and France, have re-called the culture of poetics, or non-rational, non-calculating, non-commercialised way to act in the world. Sadly, not everyone knows about this.

It is my interpretation that it is these conflicting values within societies that cause some to dismiss Yoshiki's exhaustion "as bull". I personally believe the scene was almost or possibly even completely real, because I have faith in Yoshiki being genuinely, almost astonishingly from the calculating-rational Western perspective, committed to his job. This may be difficult for many to understand but I hope people to be more reflexive regarding their own cultural assumptions and background of thinking.

Only what is in motion can rest."
-Martin Heidegger


Offline nage

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Reply #81 on: April 08, 2008, 09:49:00 PM
X-J.... marry me...? O_O


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Offline X-J

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Reply #82 on: April 08, 2008, 09:52:43 PM
Quote from: "nage"
X-J.... marry me...? O_O


 8)  Well, I'm 27, what about you?  :P

Only what is in motion can rest."
-Martin Heidegger


Offline nemetroid

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Reply #83 on: April 08, 2008, 10:20:54 PM
Just yesterday, I was talking a bit to my mother about X (seeing as she's got curious after learning about the live in Paris) and when it came to the reunion the first question she asked and answered herself was "Why did they reunite? To make more money i suppose". This kind of approach, and the skepticism I've found from friends when showing the Last Live etc, is something that I've thought about.

It all boiled down to what you've said, only a bit worse formulated in my head.  :D

At the same time I don't believe that what you are saying is any longer typical for the japanese society. Tokyo is easily the most commercial city I've yet to visit, the huge billboards everywhere, the obsession with idols, and so on. I would say that especially the music industry has been heavily commercialised, with Johnny's Jimusho and all. My japanese teacher often brings up this point, that popular japanese musicians can't sing these days, only look beautiful (which i find to be true - SMAP etc really have awful voices).

I would rather say that it's fairly particular to X, or at least that the cultural difference isn't the largest factor. After Yoshiki's collapse i looked a bit at the music BBS's at 2ch and doubters were prominent there as well.



Offline nage

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Reply #84 on: April 08, 2008, 10:24:24 PM
Quote from: "X-J"
8)  Well, I'm 27, what about you?  :P

younger but adult.. since when does age matter? XD


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Offline Hollywood

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Reply #85 on: April 08, 2008, 11:27:55 PM
Well, call me a gloomy, calculating, biased, jaded, skeptical Westerner, but--

When a band releases more compilations than actual albums, it gets a little tough for me to believe that everything their leader has ever done was purely for innocent-childlike-poetic "artistic reasons".

By the way, I'm not opposed to money and marketing.  Not at all.  But really... "Starlight Yoshiki" dolls?  Got no problem with that, but it's-- heheh-- not exactly my idea of art for art's sake.

And as a sidenote, not all Americans nor all Westerners are "Anglo", as "Anglo" is a prefix relating specifically to England and English descent.  I'm an American, but I have no English blood at all.  Sorry for the OT and semantic BS, that's just a peeve of mine.

So anyway... Ballad Collection, anyone? :P

color=darkred]STAND UP!  FUCK UP![/color]


Offline X-J

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Reply #86 on: April 09, 2008, 07:25:57 AM
Quote from: "nage"
Quote from: "X-J"
8)  Well, I'm 27, what about you?  :P

younger but adult.. since when does age matter? XD


Uuh...  8)  Since never. Okay, PM me and let's get down into details...  :D Oh, I just PMd you instead...  :)

Only what is in motion can rest."
-Martin Heidegger


Offline X-J

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Reply #87 on: April 09, 2008, 07:40:15 AM
Quote from: "Hollywood"
Well, call me a gloomy, calculating, biased, jaded, skeptical Westerner, but--

When a band releases more compilations than actual albums, it gets a little tough for me to believe that everything their leader has ever done was purely for innocent-childlike-poetic "artistic reasons".


You're totalising my position; I was referring to the general, ideological characteristics of the cultures. Certainly, praxis requires skills to do business in Japan also. It does not follow, however, that this business-scenting necessarily reaches into the stage and the private self on stage, every breathing moment there, because experience itself is more than rational, level-headed calculation or strictly following a rule-based discourse.

Analogously, a guy or a girl may have non-rational, non-down-to-earth experiences, but it does not follow that s/he's completely detached from practical world... Otherwise s/he'd die... Which, by the way, has not been that distant a possibility in Yoshiki's case.  :)

Quote from: "Hollywood"
"Starlight Yoshiki" dolls?  Got no problem with that, but it's-- heheh-- not exactly my idea of art for art's sake.


There are other aesthetic theories besides "art for art's sake" which, by the way, is an Anglo-American construct famously manifesting in New Criticism. Its mistake is to believe that the aesthetic world is some detachable, pure a priori. I, on the other hand, believe that we cannpt separate aesthetic experience from the rest of life so easily.

Quote from: "Hollywood"
And as a sidenote, not all Americans nor all Westerners are "Anglo", as "Anglo" is a prefix relating specifically to England and English descent.  I'm an American, but I have no English blood at all.  Sorry for the OT and semantic BS, that's just a peeve of mine.


Well, they are as far as intellectual history and culture are concerned.  :) In opposition, there's talk of Continental way of thought. These branches have been uniting more only since after the Second World War.

Only what is in motion can rest."
-Martin Heidegger


Offline ferret

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Reply #88 on: April 09, 2008, 07:51:36 AM
Quote from: "Hollywood"

When a band releases more compilations than actual albums, it gets a little tough for me to believe that everything their leader has ever done was purely for innocent-childlike-poetic "artistic reasons".


I agree and that is actually a perfectly good reason for scepticism.

There was a little wtf moment for me when I read last year or the year before that, that there will be possibly a "complete" Last Live and a complete whatnot. Thing is, we don't know how complete that really is (except maybe for the people who were at that concert).

It reminds me of George "I milk it all" Lucas (that is just an extreme case, I don't say Yoshiki is exploiting his fans like he does), when he brings out a director's cut of Star Wars every two years or so "with never before scenes", digitally remastered, with 5 trading cards etc. Yeah, and now I feel stupid for buying the director's cut box from two years ago because it said exactly the same "never before seen scenes" blablabla.

RIP


Offline Uncontrol

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Reply #89 on: April 09, 2008, 07:55:04 AM
Eh. I love Yoshiki, it's just sometimes he scares me.

I see Hollywood talking about all of the "Best of" albums and various compliations and then I remembered the English best of album. It made me wonder. If only their pre-existing English songs are thrown in there, then you have to wonder how much he REALLY cares about the music. I mean, sure, Give Me the Pleasure and Desperate Angel are alright songs, but do they really represent X? Not really.

So, I mean...if they re-records X classics like WEEK END, Endless Rain, and X, then that's one thing. But releasing "Give Me The Please" on the album is just an obvious cash grab.

Time will tell.