X Japan Downloading "Debate"

BizKiTRoAcH · **on:** July 20, 2007, 01:20:17 AM

Its not really a debate but yeah, instead of filling up the other topic, post everything in here. I'll keep it rolling:

Nande_Ebisu, what you are failing to realise is that Yoshiki has already earned his money for these DVD releases before they are out.

This might change with the newer releases but do you know why its hard to find some older X stuff? They dont make them anymore. They (the record company) produced... lets say 2 million units and then distributed them to various shops and companies. Thats it. They dont make anymore. The record company probably doesnt have any left because they've sold them all. Therefore, the record company has made all the money they'll make on those units and so has Yoshiki. HOWEVER, the shops might lose out if no-one buy them. The shops spent X amount of money for the dvds and if they dont sell them all, they havent necessarily lost money but they've lost profits.

If they (the shops) buy 10 dvds for $5 each ($50 total) and sell them all for $10 each ($100 total), once they've sold 5 units, they've broke even. If they dont sell anymore, they havent gained or lost any of their money. If they do sell more, they gain profit.

I hope that makes sense. If you dont buy the dvds or cds, Yoshiki still gets paid. In most cases, the record company will pay the artist a certain amount whether they sell 1 dvd or 1 million dvds. Its the record companies and shops that will lose out so you dont have to worry about Yoshiki not having as much as he should.

Anyway, its EXTREMELY cheap to produce dvds. Obviously it costs a bit more to put it in a fancy box but it probably costs i'd say about $30 MAX to produce this boxset coming out, yet the recommended retail price is $165! Its us that are keeping these people in business so they shouldnt piss on us. Its not like they have to worry about paying extra for any copyrights because they own it all. Its different for films as the studios will have to pay record companies to use songs but in this case, the record company doesnt have to pay any extra fees out.

I could go on forever here but i'll switch back to downloading:

I say download it all. Download everything. Most of the older stuff isnt available anymore and if you buy it from eBay, the only person that gains money is the seller. Yoshiki doesnt gain anything from it and he doesnt lose anything if you download it. With the newer releases, while I do think you should buy it, if its a choice between paying the rent or buying an X Japan dvd, obviously you choose paying the rent.

From your posts, what you are saying (or at least what i'm reading) is that if you choose to download it because you have no money or you need the money for food/rent, you are not a fan. That is bullshit.

If you download it and have LOTS of money, watch it all the time and refuse to buy it, THAT is a bad fan in my opinion. I've downloaded EVERY X-Related thing ever (I think). That includes stuff produced by the members of X, other bands that the members were in, songs that the members contributed to albums or movie soundtracks etc. I DOWNLOADED IT ALL. Why? Its not because I'm not a fan and dont support the artists. Its because I am a fan and I had NO money. Are you saying that I shouldnt be allowed to enjoy this because they wont give me a pay-rise at my job and I cant afford to buy it?

HOWEVER, on the rare occasion I do get extra money, I dont spend it on beer and hookers, I buy one of those things i've downloaded. I have pretty much everything X-Related, yet the only originals I own are:

X Japan Complete Best II Boxset
Art of Life DVD
Art of Life CD
X Japan Best (U.S. Release)
Blue Blood (Remastered Version)
Jealousy (Remastered Version)
6x 8CM Singles
hide Perfect Single Collection Boxset
Pata's Bootleg (VHS, Official release, not actually a bootleg)
2 "Official" posters and 3 non-official ones.
2 Photobooks (Rose & Blood Tour/Final Legend)

Thats it. Not a lot compared to the 60GB of stuff i've downloaded. I'm slowly building it up though.

I've lost track of what my point was because i'm tired and i have to sleep because i'm working in 8 hours.. but really, downloading is good. Downloading AND SELLING COPIES IS BAD!! I will never approve of that. Downloading copies for yourself is fine though. Yeah, you should buy the stuff but if its no longer officially available (meaning available through stores and not ebay), dont worry about it. If it is, buy it when you can afford. NO ARTIST IS WORTH PUTTING YOURSELF IN A BAD SITUATION.

If you would rather pay yesasia.com (who already have lots and lots of money) $160 than pay your rent and eat food, you are an idiot. Remember, the record companies or shops might be losing out if lots of people download it, but they are already RICH. Its not like THEY wont be able to afford to eat if you dont buy it.

ferret · **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2007, 04:40:56 AM

Quote from: "Nande_Ebisu"

But I can say that you aren't a good fan in Yoshiki's point of view, because you don't support him financially.

To me that sounds more like your point of view than Yoshiki's.
But IF he only wanted fans to "support him financially", I wouldn't even want to be a fan of his anymore.

Quote from: "BizKiTRoAcH"

I DOWNLOADED IT ALL. Why? Its not because I'm not a fan and dont support the artists. Its because I am a fan and I had NO money. Are you saying that I shouldnt be allowed to enjoy this because they wont give me a pay-rise at my job and I cant afford to buy it?

Lee, I...I love you <3 Couldn't have said it better myself.

Cruor · **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2007, 04:53:04 PM

without the free downloading crap.

X Japan would not exist in my life, nuff said.

AsukaMiyu · **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2007, 06:49:49 PM

Quote from: "Cruor"

without the free downloading crap.

X Japan would not exist in my life, nuff said.

I second that!

xScQ · **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2007, 07:14:28 PM

I'm also sure that Yoshiki finds it all alright that it's done though. He knows how big X still is, and all this distribution of files and YouTube etc, is only helping to get it noticed by new fans (Well.. I mean he can easily make it stop is what i'm saying with reference to like YouTube, but he hasn't). And I also think it's a nice sense of freedom you get. I mean.. try uploading something from Cro Magnons or other artists. The shit is deleted and record companies are after your ass.

It's their good right, hell yeah. But many of those antics from companies and just whiny asses have kept me from buying alot of stuff. Simply because I think to myself "God damnit I can even enjoy sending files to my friends or upload a nice fucking video to YouTube.. fuck them."

Well.. you know what I mean.

Sander · **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2007, 12:38:37 PM

Quote from: "Cruor"

without the free downloading crap.

X Japan would not exist in my life, nuff said.

Without downloading, I don't think X would have much over 100 fans outside Japan right now...

And amen to everything Lee said.

And maybe consider also that if you live in Finland, an average CD that costs about 4000YEN (around £17/€25/$30 or so), it takes maybe 4-5 hours of work, as average pay should be around that (I know that in England the minimum is about 1000YEN/hour- around £5), but as I live in Estonia, where minimum is 215YEN/hour (or something around it) and average maybe 300-400YEN/hour I have to work more than twice as much to get the same thing. True, the food and accommodation may be more expensive, still electronics, books, CDs/DVDs and such are not.

alex · **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2007, 06:11:08 PM

Assuming that things work exactly as you say, if sales sucks, the record companies will produce lesser units of the next release which gives the artist less money.

Sander · **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2007, 06:46:47 PM

AND if every person who really likes X would want to buy everything, only a handful would get something, because for every release there are usually 10 fans. Atleast for the older releases...

BizKiTRoAcH · **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2007, 11:54:03 PM

Quote from: "alex"

Assuming that things work exactly as you say, if sales sucks, the record companies will produce lesser units of the next release which gives the artist less money.

I cant argue with that. That is true.. but its been said earlier that MOST fans will still buy the stuff when they have the money. Obviously not all of them will but I'd say at LEAST 50% of the fans that would download the item will also buy it when they have the money.

You also have to take into consideration what the item is. The "Complete Best II" boxset probably hasnt sold as well as expected.. but that is because everything in it was already available apart from ONE dvd. That one dvd is NOT worth $300 (I think that was the price of the boxset anyway). The boxset was good for fans like me who dont have all the dvds/cds that were in it.. but if you already own all the stuff in it, why waste the money?? I would, because i'm a collector, but most fans would not want more than one copy of a dvd or cd or whatever (*looks at marks 45980 copies of Vanishing Vision Vinyl*)

If however, the release is NEW stuff like the upcoming dvds, a lot of people WILL buy it because its new and hasnt been seen before (excluding a few bootleg traders). If they release a "complete" Last Live with the missing songs on it, I really cant see that selling very well. It'll be good for the fans who dont own the last live but for the ones that do, will it be worth the $100 (i'm guessing it'll be selling for around that price. The original last live did) price tag for 2 or 3 songs? For most fans, i'm going to say no.

It probably wont be an issue though. Obviously they arent going to run out of stock within the first week so they normally produce a certain amount of stock (lets say 1 million units) and keep it in a nice big warehouse. Even if they still have a lot of that stock left in 6 months (when they produce another new dvd), they'll probably still make another 1 million units of the next dvd and keep hold of that. Its always better to have too much than not enough from a business point of view.

And I'm not saying Yoshiki doesnt deserve the money.. but he's already rich. If they have to cut down how much they pay him, its not like he'll be living on the streets. It might just mean he has to cut down on breaking equipment during every damn performance

Kyubi · **Reply #9 on:** July 22, 2007, 12:28:21 AM

Well... I can't understand WHY you give a fuck to that kind of stuff....

It's really really stupid...

motorhead · **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2007, 03:29:08 PM

yes, i agree. downloading is great promotion, and the music and eye candy should come first.

i have spent hundreds of dollars on x product's from yesasia and things like that. but i am guilty for downloading and buying bootlegs. why? because at the time, i was poor and couldn't afford a multi-regional dvd player or japanese imports anymore.

as everyone explained, they are/were in the same situation as i was in. so..yeah..
:wink:

but please understand, everyone has to make a living. the money doesn't just go directly to yoshiki , his gold platted toilet seats and million dollar mansion.

some of it goes to the people who work for him too. concerts, management, advertisers, stylists, photographers, marketing managers, studio recording people, taxes, assistants, directors, etc. evertyhing costs money and yoshiki has to pay that back.

Nande_Ebisu · **Reply #11 on:** August 04, 2007, 07:41:10 PM

Thank you for the info BizKiTRoAcH, I didn't know that Yoshiki or other artists get paid like that. I had heard that for example the bookwriters gets paid when a shop sells a book, not when the shop takes the book on sale. So I also thought that other artists/writers and such people gets paid like this. But what you said sounds much easier. I wonder if what I have heard only affects indie bands or writers who have published the book themselves without real publisher and then asked the shop to take it on sale.

And what alex said is also true.

And yes, many of you say that you wouldn't have heard X in the first place without downloading, I'm saying the same thing. It took about one year before I bought my first X release (complete II) after I had heard X first time.

After thinking what you said, downloading seems to be fine. But you should still buy the real stuff. I'm buying all I can, at the moment I'm missing two VHS, three singles and few remix albums + something random. But don't come to brag with the amounts you have downloaded or uploaded, that's stupid and you'll get owned by a person who has bought the same albums or videos because: buying > downloading.

BizKiTRoAcH · **Reply #12 on:** August 04, 2007, 11:31:10 PM

Quote from: "Nande_Ebisu"

After thinking what you said, downloading seems to be fine. But you should still buy the real stuff. I'm buying all I can, at the moment I'm missing two VHS, three singles and few remix albums + something random. But don't come to brag with the amounts you have downloaded or uploaded, that's stupid and you'll get owned by a person who has bought the same albums or videos because: buying > downloading.

And that is something I agree with. Downloading is fine but you really should support the artists with their new releases.

The payment system works the same with indie bands, the only difference is because they arent as established as someone like Yoshiki, they do not get paid as much.. and if its their first album, their next pay cheque will depend on how many albums are sold. That is why a lot of indie bands and not-super-famous bands make more money touring. They get a lot of money from merchandise sales at concerts.